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Subject: Guns in Myth (Poll) rss

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Runeshade

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Poll: Would you prefer Myth Miniatures to remain Gun-Free?
1. Are you in favor of adding guns/firearms to the World of Myth
Yes. Stab ya or shoot you, whats the difference?
No. Keep the Guns in Recon and the Blades and Bows in Myth.
2. If you had the deciding vote on final sculpts, what weapon would you choose for the "Roland the Hand" 750k stetch goal Rogue Boss?
Triple barrel handgun
One-Handed Crossbow
      104 answers
Poll created by Runeshade
If you take a gander at the Kickstarter Journeyman Update #60, you might notice that the male Duelist appears to be holding a pistol, and the currently locked 750K stretch goal for the Rogue Boss, Roland the Hand also is sporting a handheld firearm.

Now, up until this point, the Myth Universe has been free of firearms. In fact, if my memory is correct, the Recon crossover exclusive Hunter mini once sported a gun, before he was redone with a one-handed crossbow. (maybe one of you internet wizards can dig up the original concept art for comparison). Regardless, I'm glad the Hunter ended up with the crossbow, like the look of the current artwork and hoped that was the end of the issue. Alas, no such luck for me.

I have nothing against mini's with guns in general, I pledged Recon, I greatly enjoy Shadows of Brimstone, etc., but I have to admit that I'm disappointed to see guns once again creep into concept art for Myth. Yes, Myth has Clockworks and Explosives, etc. and I'm fine with that, but I just don't see the need to add handheld firearms to the mix. Call me purist, or elitist or anti-gun, or whatever, but I just think that guns detract from the setting, not add to it.

Personally, I'd love to see the Rogue Boss reworked with a crossbow of some sort instead of the pistol, and the male duelist end up with a second blade or other alternate weapon.

Also, please don't think I'm going to hissy fit, or threaten to drop my pledge, or other such nonsense... this is posted to see if others feel similarly to me, and hear the ideas of the community. My pledge isn't going anywhere until the pledgemanager arrives, when it will almost certainly increase, regardless of how this turns out.

What say you?
 
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Joe Crane
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Re: Guns in Myth
I think it makes the not towering boss more of a threat with it, i'm fine with it. That and I have a CWP so i'm kind of not anti gun.
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Nick Hughes
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Re: Guns in Myth
Fantasy has such a spread and pulls from so many influences that I have no problem one way or another with seeing them here. Some of my most enjoyable reads blend in firearms with sorcery/magic and as you say we already have clockwork minions and the tinkers traps.

A mere two minis in the bucket load that is in Myth 1 and 2 makes them the exception rather than the rule.
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Robert Tornai
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Re: Guns in Myth
I am good with it , if it satys at the flintlock/musket type level of a gun. If it starts going to full automatics or far sci-fi type, like the have in their mercs setting then I will be out.
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Michael Hancock-Parmer
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Re: Guns in Myth
Funny how specific you were, but I would be even more so! I think that once match-locks were replaced by flint-locks, you had the real McCoy in terms of end-of-castles. Match-locks were a pain, worked poorly in certain weather, needed lots of maintenance, and could be created by relatively unskilled gunsmiths... flint-locks (and rifled barrels) gave a real advantage to those friendly with advanced weapon-making experience.

But Myth already has Catholic Priests working with Skalds and Spriggans. So, it's goofy that we're saying, "Hey, yeah, bards and Catholic priests are cool, but mind you keep your ranged weaponry on genre!"

Unless you're trolling to say, "LOL, j/k, What's a genre!?"
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Runeshade

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Re: Guns in Myth
The male duelist is just a quick sketch. ATM, it looks like a revolver to me, but it could disappear completely or take on more of a flintlock style in the future. The Rogue Boss however is much more fleshed out. He looks to be holding a triple barreled flare gun, but maybe it launches small rockets or something? It doesn't look very flintlockish though.

Either way, once the figures have them, the cards in decks will obviously make use of/refer to them, and I'd personally rather not have that in my fantasy type games. Recon, Yes. Brimstone, Yes. Any various space game, Yes. Just about anywhere else is great, but what is the need to add it to the fantasy setting when a triggered crossbow or suchlike would fit so much better? If a ranged secondary weapon is desired for the duelist, why not use a throwing knife? (Standard straight would probably fit best, but you could always go with a freaky dangerous looking African variety if you prefer something exotic)

 
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Runeshade

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Re: Guns in Myth
miflhanc wrote:
Funny how specific you were, but I would be even more so! I think that once match-locks were replaced by flint-locks, you had the real McCoy in terms of end-of-castles. Match-locks were a pain, worked poorly in certain weather, needed lots of maintenance, and could be created by relatively unskilled gunsmiths... flint-locks (and rifled barrels) gave a real advantage to those friendly with advanced weapon-making experience.

But Myth already has Catholic Priests working with Skalds and Spriggans. So, it's goofy that we're saying, "Hey, yeah, bards and Catholic priests are cool, but mind you keep your ranged weaponry on genre!"

Unless you're trolling to say, "LOL, j/k, What's a genre!?"


The Catholic priests are somewhat out of place, but they are basically friends of the creators with very minor roles, and they are already in the game at this point, whereas the guns aren't... yet. Before this Kickstarter, they only merited a token. They also can be seen as generic establishment religious figures. Spriggans, Skalds, Mongooses (Mongeese? ) and Rat Brigands are all good with me
 
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David Jackson
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The lady duelist has been sporting a flintlock style pistol since she was revealed early into the campaign.

I don't want assault rifles in my Myth, but I'm quite good with black powder or steampunk style firearms, and I think they add another layer of flavor to Myth's world that is missing in other fantasy-ish dungeon crawlers.

Plus, it's a bit silly to say that fire arms are out of place in Myth, when we have the trickster chucking explosives and the professor cruising around in a giant mechanical T-rex Mech.
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Thorsten Schröder
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Myth is a fantasygame like WOW.
So the aproach is: Everything is possible. Crazy gnome's and their robots. Guns. At some point in the fuure I guess we'll see aliens and spacecrafts.
Sadly most fantasy gaming worlds succumb to this.
Runebound had aliens in 'Frozen wastes'.
Early iterations of the german RPG 'The dark eye' had nuclear reactors going crazy in wizard tower that was formerly a space ship in deadly desert.
I don't like the guns and rifles in mantic's 'Kings of War' universe.

In MiddleEarth we didn't even have crossbows until Peter Jackson put some in at Battle for Helm's Deep (and I don't like them).
Although in early versions of Tolkien's Downfall of Gondolin the orcs came in somthing that can only be described as armoured tanklike vehicles.

For gaming I suppose guns are fun. But I think they take away a lot of atmosphere.
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Martin
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I just don't get what makes guns out of place in a fantasy game! I'm honestly baffled by the notion.

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Chad Caughmann
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Cogdiz wrote:
I just don't get what makes guns out of place in a fantasy game! I'm honestly baffled by the notion.


That's easy, actually. "Fantasy", as a setting, most commonly refers to a medieval European inspired setting. Guns are one of the elements of combat that signaled the end of the medieval era, and transitioned us into the world of modern combat we have today. For many, guns are simply too modern of a symbol to have in a game inspired by medieval times.


Sure, you get people in more recent years saying things like "it's fantasy...it can be anything that isn't based on reality"....but those arguments are just about semantics. Its very commonly accepted in video games/books/movies that "Fantasy" most commonly refers to medieval Europe as the primary inspiration.
 
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Martin
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thetang22 wrote:

That's easy, actually. "Fantasy", as a setting, most commonly refers to a medieval European inspired setting. Guns are one of the elements of combat that signaled the end of the medieval era, and transitioned us into the world of modern combat we have today. For many, guns are simply too modern of a symbol to have in a game inspired by medieval times.


Still? I mean sure, it still probably is the most common fantasy setting, but these days there are so many fantasy settings that have stepped away from that very worn out Tolkien mold. I would not be surprised to see this conversation during the eighties, but today? Well, we all have our preferences I suppose.

When it comes to Myth specifically I think it has been very clear from the beginning that Megacon has wanted to make a different kind of fantasy setting. Although the gameplay is very much World of Warcraft/Everquest-inspired the visuals feel more like something you'd see in Fable.
 
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Thorsten Schröder
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I think we are operating with different definition of the term fantasy.
There is a stricter form of fantasy where modern technologies ar a no go.

And then you have a more loose or broader understanding of fantasy where everything imaginable is allowed.

I think both are OK but in (let's say) novels I'd like to have a stricter frame because it defines a fantasyworld better (IMHO).
 
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Martin
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Cuthailion wrote:
I think we are operating with different definition of the term fantasy.
There is a stricter form of fantasy where modern technologies ar a no go.

And then you have a more loose or broader understanding of fantasy where everything imaginable is allowed.

I think both are OK but in (let's say) novels I'd like to have a stricter frame because it defines a fantasyworld better (IMHO).


But why? It's just such an arbitrary "rule". Is it no longer fantasy if there are guns (even though they've been around for a thousand years)?

And again, regarding Myth specifically, it is so clearly very different from Tolkien (which I'll be using as short-hand for the kind of pseudo-European pseudo-medieval setting that represents "bog standard fantasy")
and I'm surprised that people weren't expecting guns.

I would probably raise my eyebrow if this was a Tolkien game and all of a sudden the orcs had flintlocks (although that actually would be really cool - the industrial revolution of the Fourth Age!) but seeing how the Myth setting has been kind of blurry and a lot more "modern" looking than your bog standard high fantasy, a la D&D or Descent, having guns feels like a natural progression. And how come the Trickster and the robots (that actually seem more advanced than we can build today) don't break this little fantasy bubble? Is it only guns? Robots, grenades and cybernetics are ok?

 
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Runeshade

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Cogdiz wrote:
I just don't get what makes guns out of place in a fantasy game! I'm honestly baffled by the notion.



Ever seen the classic comedy movie scene where the badass martial artist shows off his moves and the hero watches, pulls out his gun and shoots him dead?

Ever think about attempting to parry a bullet with a sword?

Ever heard the expression "never bring a knife to a gun fight?"

Guns are great weapons, and great equalizers, but the best swordsman in the world isn't worth jack against one. I guess that is the essence of the problem as I see it.
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Joe Crane
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Runeshade wrote:
Cogdiz wrote:
I just don't get what makes guns out of place in a fantasy game! I'm honestly baffled by the notion.



Ever seen the classic comedy movie scene where the badass martial artist shows off his moves and the hero watches, pulls out his gun and shoots him dead?

Ever think about attempting to parry a bullet with a sword?

Ever heard the expression "never bring a knife to a gun fight?"

Guns are great weapons, and great equalizers, but the best swordsman in the world isn't worth jack against one. I guess that is the essence of the problem as I see it.

In a fantasy world you can parry a bullet.
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Martin
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Runeshade wrote:
Cogdiz wrote:
I just don't get what makes guns out of place in a fantasy game! I'm honestly baffled by the notion.



Ever seen the classic comedy movie scene where the badass martial artist shows off his moves and the hero watches, pulls out his gun and shoots him dead?

Ever think about attempting to parry a bullet with a sword?

Ever heard the expression "never bring a knife to a gun fight?"

Guns are great weapons, and great equalizers, but the best swordsman in the world isn't worth jack against one. I guess that is the essence of the problem as I see it.


Hmm... ok. So it's not about the technology being "too modern" but rather that it would be too powerful? Compared to what? Longswords? Historically that was certainly the case, although it took a few hundred years and during that time both saw use. However, when you have guys who can do bang noises and shoot fireballs out of their fingers flintlocks start to look a lot less impressive.

Sorry if I'm sounding argumentative. I'm honestly trying to understand why you "can't" have guns in a fantasy setting.
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Michael Hancock-Parmer
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Runeshade wrote:
Guns are great weapons, and great equalizers, but the best swordsman in the world isn't worth jack against one. I guess that is the essence of the problem as I see it.


Yep, this exactly. Anyone remember the PSone game Bushido Blade? That featured a variety of edged and blunt weapon combat... but there was still the random villain with a GUN. That game made the combat slightly winnable by making it so the character could be defeated just by incapacitating his legs, whereas other opponents could fight on with injured legs. Naturally, that still required closing the distance on An Enemy With A GUN.

I'm really starting to consider the possibility of selling off my Captain pledge from the first KS, but I still have this sunny glimmer of hope that this game will eventually be amazing. Instead of sending newbies to look at the official play-through and rules videos, we should be sending them all to rahdo's Run Through on YouTube, as I feel he's had the most realistic and repeatable experience with the game. I also don't feel that the 2.0 rulebook has fixed the problems so much as the rule organization and the idea that they are selling a rule/art book is comical to me. Why would they want to crystallize as a souvenir item such problematic text? I could see myself buying an art/lore book before expecting them to actually get their rulebook under control.
 
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Thorsten Schröder
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I guess a problem I have with guns and machines is that (as was said before) in our history than rang in the end of medieval times.
I like to think of my fantasy worlds as worlds tjat are just that. And if I revisit this world in ten or twenty years its still a edieval world.
And not all of a sudden industrialised.
You know like the shire at the end of LotR. Industie and pollution everywhere. No sorry got that in real Life. Dont need that in my fantasy world.
 
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Joe Crane
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckz7EmDxhtU
A fun video about the knife about a gun fight In close quarters the knife wins
 
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Joe Crane
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Cuthailion wrote:
I guess a problem I have with guns and machines is that (as was said before) in our history than rang in the end of medieval times.
I like to think of my fantasy worlds as worlds tjat are just that. And if I revisit this world in ten or twenty years its still a edieval world.
And not all of a sudden industrialised.
You know like the shire at the end of LotR. Industie and pollution everywhere. No sorry got that in real Life. Dont need that in my fantasy world.

Little known fact, the crawlers poison would be considered toxic waste now a days
 
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Martin
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miflhanc wrote:
Runeshade wrote:
Guns are great weapons, and great equalizers, but the best swordsman in the world isn't worth jack against one. I guess that is the essence of the problem as I see it.


Yep, this exactly. Anyone remember the PSone game Bushido Blade? That featured a variety of edged and blunt weapon combat... but there was still the random villain with a GUN. That game made the combat slightly winnable by making it so the character could be defeated just by incapacitating his legs, whereas other opponents could fight on with injured legs. Naturally, that still required closing the distance on An Enemy With A GUN.


Michael, we're talking about guns vs no-guns in fantasy. Not about the rules or the gameplay. Let's leave that to in any one of the hundreds of threads on that matter and stick to the guns discussion.

So, here we have at least two people who seem to view swords and swordfighting as a central part of fantasy and that this would be ruined by the introduction of guns. Yet longbows, repeating crossbows and magic fireballs are in. I'm just not seeing a solid argument based on realism here. Sorry.
 
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Martin
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Cuthailion wrote:
I guess a problem I have with guns and machines is that (as was said before) in our history than rang in the end of medieval times.
I like to think of my fantasy worlds as worlds tjat are just that. And if I revisit this world in ten or twenty years its still a edieval world.
And not all of a sudden industrialised.
You know like the shire at the end of LotR. Industie and pollution everywhere. No sorry got that in real Life. Dont need that in my fantasy world.


This makes a lot more sense. It's not about any perceived realism, but rather that the fantasy setting you prefer (and perhaps expect) is the fuzzy medieval Tolkien-ish sort where time kind of stands still. Not for any other reason than your own personal preference. I get that. Although I think there should have been some warning bells going off even during the first kickstarter, just by looking at the design of the heroes.

Personally I like variety in my genres and although Middle-Earth is probably my favourite fantasy setting there is just so much more out there! Like I mentioned earlier, I think Myth is what you get when you cross Fable 2 with World of Warcraft.

 
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I don't mind having guns as long as it seems to correspond with the tech level of the clockwork stuff.

The matchlock was used quite a long time ago (1400s), wheellock/snaplock/snaphance/miquelet were 1500s, and flintlock (french lock) was still at least 1600s.

I wouldn't exactly mind any of those.

I would overall prefer percussion to be left out of it, but there isn't really any restrictions in this world. It hasn't been stated that tech is devoid in this world, but there should probably be limits somewhere, lest we start using laser beams

Modern weapons - definitely prefer to avoid.
 
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Xuzu Horror
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Either way, it's just my preference. I am not going to much care how it ends up. I'll still enjoy the game. This is not really an important aspect to me, personally.
 
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