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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Why I feel OL is underpowered rss

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Nicklas Hansson
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TL;DR
OL is underpowered because heroes can snowball with gear, and reinforcements are discouraging you to use groups with lots of monsters in them.


I know, maybe I'm beating a dead horse, as it seems this topic has been discussed every now and then here on the forums, but I do feel I have some opinions I haven't seen expressed so much before.

First of all, I'm not a super experienced Descent player, but with an almost completed campaign (one quest left then Finale) and maybe 6 other missions played, I have around 12 completed games, all as the OL, so at least I have some understanding of the game as a whole.

Almost every single quest has been a loss for me as the OL and the easy explanation would obviously be that I'm simply not playing well enough. Even though that could be the case I really find it hard to believe all the posts I've seen about OL's crushing the heroes and that they are too strong. I just get the feeling we are missing out on something big, like a rule we are missing or something.
For the record, we have been playing the basic ruleset as well as the Lair of the Wyrm expanison and the Ariad plot deck.


As the OL, I always pick the monsters I feel would benefit the objective first and foremost, I always prioritise the objective rather than killing heroes, and I try to block as much searching as I possibly can. Despite this, I stand no chance against the heroes.

What makes me even more confused, is that people seem to say that the game is really balanced around the number of actions you have. That the number of actions is the real resource that matters and that heroes should completely ignore mosters when they can, since there is "not enough incentive to kill them". I couldn't disagree more.

What happens in every game for me, is that the heroes spend maybe a turn or two to just simply wipe as many monsters they can. They ignore everything else and just wipe me. I've tried keeping mosters out of sight, I've tried swarming the heroes and I've tried taking beefy monsters (again, according to what I feel suits my OL objective) but still they just completely annihilate me.

After they have killed most monsters they simply go for the objective and search for loot while just killing my few monsters I get with the reinforcements (some encounters don't even offer this!) which is no threat to them at all in so few numbers.


I've narrowed the issues down to a few things:


1. Reinforcements are too few. 1 monster per turn just completely discourages you from taking monster groups with many units, and instead almost forces you to get big monsters, to get as much value as possible from the reinforcement. If the heroes simply kill two or more monsters on their turn, they are slowly reducing my forces until only a few remain and there's little I can do about it (usually they kill a lot more than that per turn).


2. In the campaign mode, the heroes snowball more and more with every victory. Since I had such a hard time winning they just got 100% loot from every mission, and got relics and upgrades that just further pushed their ability to kill everything I threw at them. Even a lost encounter for the heroes, could mean they get a lot of money, so they still grow better. The OL can only get ONE additional card per xp (sometimes less)
and the threat token upgrades, which honestly haven't helped me that much.
Once you start losing, there is no way to come back, you just keep getting weaker compared to the heroes.


Sorry for this lengthy post, but I just feel so frustrated that I seem to be defenceless against the heroes, and I refuse to believe I'm that bad as an OL. :/















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Curtis Delaney
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I was really discouraged after our last game night running the Shadow of Nerekhall campaign. We played the quest, "Nightmares," which I've read really leans toward the Overlord. Reading the quest the first time, my thought was, "Oh man, the heroes are screwed now." Not so much.

The heroes in my campaign are insanely strong. They all have some sort of free attack during their turn...and a treasure hunter. NOTHING I throw at them is a threat. The healer, Elder Mok as Apothecary, dealt 14 damage to a boss monster in a single turn in the Nightmares quest. One free attack with pierce and free surges because he had an elixer token, then two more attacks with Staff of the Wilds. I'm more afraid of the f*cking healer than the Runemaster. Seems kinda messed up.

I actually managed to kill 3 out of 4 heroes at once during this quest with a volly of blast attacks. I felt like, "That had to hurt them. Ok, this is going well. Surely I've got this." Nope.

The one guy I didn't manage to kill (treasure hunter) used free movement/fatigue to skate across the map, pick up a search token which triggers free movement and a free attack, kill a monster, Heroic feat to kill another monster, MOVE ACROSS THE MAP AGAIN (from MP given by heroic feat), then use his second action to revive the healer. The healer repeated this strategy because he didn't have to perform a stand up action. 1. Free attack skill (not an action) 2. Attack action 3. Revive the guy laying next to him. Rinse, Repeat.

By the next turn all of my monsters were dead and every hero was revived, some of them full health thanks to Health Potions/Elixer tokens, etc. It was frustrating. . .

We've had a couple of pretty tight games, but at this point I've only managed to win two quests out of 10 (we played a Rumor quest).

It is entirely possible I'm just a bad Overlord. <shrug> I dunno. I've had fun for the most part, but having your (seemingly) well laid plans plowed over again and again before you can attempt to do anything. Having your "OMG OP" Shadow Dragons killed before they ever get to activate is demoralizing after too much of it. If I choose lots of little monsters so I can attack more, they roll crap for attack dice so do very little damage. If I choose big monsters, they get fewer attacks per round and still die as quickly as a monster with 5 HP thanks to loads of pierce and having to endure average 5-6 attacks per round.

One of the other guys already volunteered to Overlord our next campaign. I'm curious to see how it goes.

Wow... Guess I needed to vent some. Sorry for that.
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Sean Kolodji
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Amen, brother. I have to agree totally with your predicament. I play as overlord. We are a few quests into Act II of the base campaign. So far I won one encounter, the first of the two, so it meant swat. I have read all the overlord tips posted and follow them. Focus on the objective and blocking, etc. The other players can find no flaws in my game play. The heroes do just keep snowballing. It is now so bad that in the last quest the heroes felt bad and didn't want to hurt the overlord. It was Dawnblade and the whole quest took 45 minutes. It wasn't even worth the set up time. Quellen is a geomancer and keeps recovering fatigue for using his rocks. Avric the disciple heals and then gives bonus attack dice to his friends, plus has the card that can attack and heal everything in his line of sight. Grisban is a brute and has health 18 plus an extra grey defense die. We're going to have to find some house rules to balance the overlord or everyone will give up on this campaign. I don't know what's going on with the overlords that win a lot. Maybe the heroes just had a poor combination of heroes and classes at the start.
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Jeremy Haugen
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I'm just starting a campaign with a few of my friends... I'm seriously worried about this and so I've included a few things from Imperial Assault.

#1. The mission is hidden. I let them know what their objective is, but I keep my objective hidden from them. They can often figure it out by what I am doing, but it makes them a bit more cautious during those first critical turns.
#2. I alternate activations with the heroes.
#3. Imperial Assault line of sight rules... works both ways.

Things that I need to do better:
Tune my Overlord deck to the heroes.
Pick better choices for monsters.
 
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Sean Kolodji
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I think that keeping the OL objective secret could be cool. Sort of like Mansions of Madness where there's that mystery element. Heroes still have to know their objective because we don't have any clues for them in Descent. For activation, are you talking about a hero goes then a monster group then a hero again, instead of heroes turn and OL turn?
 
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Johannes Benedikt
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I expirienced the exact opposite (balanced games but in the end heroes most of the time lose) however I very seldomly played against 4 players (most of the time it's 2 people playing 4 heroes).

Nevertheless I have to say this game isn't perfect and if the heroes all pick only the strongest and bordering imbalanced classes and heroes it's not surprising that they scale out of reach very quickly after a few won quests and maybe a few lucky item-draws.

This is directed especially at Curtis. I don't really know about the whole hero-group, but Eldar Mok as apothecary and a Treasurehunter (I think it's even Logan right?) and a Runemaster? Wow I've never seen such a cheap and boring hero-party. With an apothecary the Treasurehunter doesn't even have his one tiny weakness, that he can't be healed when zipping around the map. I could elaborate on why I think this setup is boring and imbalanced, but I think it's quite obvious.
If they go that cheap I would also go cheap and pick CK Goblins and CK Ogres as often as possible.
As this is not fun for anyone I would just ban the Treasurehunter class in general (it's such a boring imbalanced class anyway imo) and Eldar Mok (I thought most do this anyway). But come on... picking both? just wow.

I don't quite know what OL cards you guys use, but imo the Basic I is much stronger than Basic II and in your cases I guess trap cards is what you are looking for (I think it's the saboteur class) because they often mess up all the movement and forces the heroes to take additional actions or end up in unfavorable positions, unable to kill everything they planned for.

In the end I really think that plot decks and threat tokens are much worse than a good OL deck and drawing cards, but I've not played with plot decks very often.
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Paul
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Except Logan Lashley can't be Immobilized.
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Slamin Perfect
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DA_Maz wrote:
This is directed especially at Curtis. I don't really know about the whole hero-group, but Eldar Mok as apothecary and a Treasurehunter (I think it's even Logan right?) and a Runemaster? Wow I've never seen such a cheap and boring hero-party. With an apothecary the Treasurehunter doesn't even have his one tiny weakness, that he can't be healed when zipping around the map. I could elaborate on why I think this setup is boring and imbalanced, but I think it's quite obvious.
If they go that cheap I would also go cheap and pick CK Goblins and CK Ogres as often as possible.
As this is not fun for anyone I would just ban the Treasurehunter class in general (it's such a boring imbalanced class anyway imo) and Eldar Mok (I thought most do this anyway). But come on... picking both? just wow.


If it's a consistent problem then I'd go to random selection (pick 1 from N). I'd also say play with the updated Eldar Mok from Oath of the Outcast.
 
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Andrew Moore
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WonderSlug wrote:
One free attack with pierce and free surges because he had an elixer token


Where that pierce comes from? If you're talking about Bottled Courage free attack, this is just a normal attack. If you combine Secret Formula too, you gain the fre surge, but no more. I'm not saying that makes any big difference, but is something to note.
 
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Curtis Delaney
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AndrewMM wrote:
WonderSlug wrote:
One free attack with pierce and free surges because he had an elixer token


Where that pierce comes from? If you're talking about Bottled Courage free attack, this is just a normal attack. If you combine Secret Formula too, you gain the fre surge, but no more. I'm not saying that makes any big difference, but is something to note.


You're right, and I'm sorry for posting stuff that wasn't 100% accurate. I'm going off my memory of the night that happened about two or three weeks ago now. The free attack is from Bottled Courage, and I got it confused/combined with Concoction which says:

[action]Perform an attack.
If you have at least 1 elixir
token, add 1 [surge] to the results.
This attack gains: Pierce 1, [surge]: +1 heart

Since the Apothecary doesn't have to worry about expending an action on his turn to actually heal anyone, he's pretty much a second caster/nuker only lacking in his ability to Blast. So his turns are pretty much fatigue movement followed by Bottled Courage, Concoction, Concoction.

Things really started getting nasty with Elder Mok when he got the Staff of the Wild, and I think at one point he even had Mana weave, until trading it to the Runemaster (who has had Rune Plate since the second quest). Anyway. The "Healer" rolls 4 dice per attack (+1 more green die, if he uses Secret Formula. Which, he's Elder Mok. He NEVER has fatigue problems, so why wouldn't he?) So it's a whole mess of surges every attack. The pierce was an incidental add in my original post.

Yes, the treasure hunter is Logan Lashley, and I only have the new Elder Mok. I don't have any CK stuff, but I own everything else current from 2nd edition.

My group is so annoying sometimes. I swear, it's like a fantasy football draft when we start a new campaign. They micro-analyse every combination of character and class, and try to min/max every angle. It literally takes like an hour for them to finally decide what freakin guys they're going to play.

I, on the other hand, pick what I think looks cool/fun and go with it. It takes about two minutes tops. This time around, I decided to play Basic II, and a mix of Shadowmancer, Punisher and Warlord because 1.) I'd not used either before, and 2.) they looked fun.

My approach, when looked at next to their approach could explain my current situation...

I've done everything I can think to try to explain to them that they're sucking the fun out of this game by treating it more like a puzzle than a fun adventure. I've made some headway, but nowhere near enough.

I've told my wife many times. I think I need a new group to play this with...
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Johannes Benedikt
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zaltyre wrote:
Except Logan Lashley can't be Immobilized.


True, but that's only really problematic if he is a treasure hunter. Regardless the Uthuk Demon Trap in combination with wicked laughter and maybe the master changeling, followed up by a nice dark charm will be problematic even for him. If you care about balance at all however, this Logan as a Treasurehunter shouldn't happen. Or at least he shouldn't be in a team with Elder Mok. The Leoric/Quellen Runemaster is just the icing on the cake imo.

I really don't get what FFG thought when creating this combination and not errata'ing until today (whereas the even less imbalanced OL cards have been changed). I mean Logan as a treasure hunter has no particular weaknesses and even most of the basic balance defining trade-offs don't apply to him: He doesn't have to use fatigue to activate extremely powerfull abilities, he is extremely fast, but can't be immobilised and undermines the imo basic balance of going for searchtokens vs. advancing the objective. Going for searchtokens should never have no drawbacks or only advantages and there is no drawback when going for searchtokens with Logan as a Treasurehunter (even less when he doesn't have to be near other heroes to get healed).
If this isn't cheap enough, picking Eldar Mok on top of that is just ridiculous.

In the end I feel like the saboteur cards could work very well to stop anyone but Logan as a Treasurehunter and imo if one hero manages to win the game all by himself that's a clear indication that he is unbalanced and lessens the fun of the game, even for the heroes who only can sit back and enjoy his show.

In the end: Do what you think is most enjoyable for your group, but if you let your team pick all the most powerfull heroes that are obviously imbalanced even when paired with weak heroes and classes without synergy, don't wonder and complain about not winning a single game.

Slamin wrote:
DA_Maz wrote:
This is directed especially at Curtis. I don't really know about the whole hero-group, but Eldar Mok as apothecary and a Treasurehunter (I think it's even Logan right?) and a Runemaster? Wow I've never seen such a cheap and boring hero-party. With an apothecary the Treasurehunter doesn't even have his one tiny weakness, that he can't be healed when zipping around the map. I could elaborate on why I think this setup is boring and imbalanced, but I think it's quite obvious.
If they go that cheap I would also go cheap and pick CK Goblins and CK Ogres as often as possible.
As this is not fun for anyone I would just ban the Treasurehunter class in general (it's such a boring imbalanced class anyway imo) and Eldar Mok (I thought most do this anyway). But come on... picking both? just wow.


If it's a consistent problem then I'd go to random selection (pick 1 from N). I'd also say play with the updated Eldar Mok from Oath of the Outcast.


I don't think a random selection is needed, because of 1 hero with a specific class is imbalanced and 1-3 other very powerfull heroes, as this only reduces the fun of picking a synergetic party and classes.
I would go as far as even allowing one of those 4 imbalanced heroes, but not more than one and certainly not when Logan the treasurehunter has to be played. There is a ton of heroes and classes to pick from and form nice interesting synergetic parties with that are actually fun to play in and play against.

WonderSlug wrote:

My group is so annoying sometimes. I swear, it's like a fantasy football draft when we start a new campaign. They micro-analyse every combination of character and class, and try to min/max every angle. It literally takes like an hour for them to finally decide what freakin guys they're going to play.


I think this is not a problem per se, because there are really cool powerfull synergetic parties to be found that don't suck the fun out of the game. But what are they doing. Running Logan as a Treasurehunter along Elder Mok every campaign?
This seems extremely boring.
Maybe you should taunt them and ask them if they can only win with both of the (widly regarded as the) only 2 truly imbalanced heroes in the game and if they are afraid of playing with normally good heroes that are just powerfull and not imbalanced.
I mean it's not like you forbid them to use half of the hero-pool, it's not even 10% and they could use them, but at least not together.
 
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Curtis Delaney
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DA_Maz wrote:
but if you let your team pick all the most powerful heroes that are obviously imbalanced even when paired with weak heroes and classes without synergy, don't wonder and complain about not winning a single game.


I hear ya.

In my group's defense though (and my own), this is only our second campaign. We've been playing the game for about two years now, and are only just now getting through our second campaign. But that's an issue for a different thread, that I'm sure I've mentioned here more than a couple times.

That said, with the understanding that my group likes to min/max the fun out of everything, I wouldn't go so far as to say they're intentionally choosing combinations which they know are cheap. Though the term "OP" is thrown around the table quite a lot these days...

And at the time they chose said heroes, I personally had no knowledge of their power/imbalance, so it's not as though:
1. They chose them purposefully because they're cheap
2. I saw and recognized the significance of the choices going on and allowed it to happen. Until now, I've never even considered the concept of not allowing them to play something. Do people do that?
3. With the above choices consciously made, started crying like a baby when things didn't go my way. (last game was pretty pathetic though, I admit. I actually texted them the next day to apologize for pouting so hard. LOL)

It's more a case of us discovering these imbalances as they're being played out.

I'm sure at the time they chose their guys the person who chose Logan, let's call him Scott, looked through the class cards and said, "Treasure Hunter sounds cool. I like moving around the map and searching. This looks like the class for me." And Logan Lashley is the character released with Labyrinth of Ruin intended to be played/represent the Treasure Hunter. Look at the character art. Scott likely picked up the character card and thought, "This guy is the Treasure Hunter, right? Looks cool. Wow. Good Hero Ability. Sick Heroic. I'll be this guy."

I don't think it was a case of looking at all these things and saying, "Oh damn, this is sooooo cheap. Curtis won't stand a chance if we pick this combination of dudes/skills."

Are my friends way to hyper critical of every decision they make in order to win the game at the expense of fun? Yes.

Should it take an hour for them to decide which of five cards they're going to buy and who's going to get them in a shopping step? Hell no.

Are they doing this stuff intentionally because they know it's cheap and they want to win and make it miserable and non-challenging? I don't think so.
 
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Curtis Delaney
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Fun idea.

Here's what I'm up against in our Finale, The Black Realm. Any chance I can win?





 
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Johannes Benedikt
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WonderSlug wrote:
DA_Maz wrote:
but if you let your team pick all the most powerful heroes that are obviously imbalanced even when paired with weak heroes and classes without synergy, don't wonder and complain about not winning a single game.


I hear ya.

In my group's defense though (and my own), this is only our second campaign. We've been playing the game for about two years now, and are only just now getting through our second campaign. But that's an issue for a different thread, that I'm sure I've mentioned here more than a couple times.

That said, with the understanding that my group likes to min/max the fun out of everything, I wouldn't go so far as to say they're intentionally choosing combinations which they know are cheap. Though the term "OP" is thrown around the table quite a lot these days...

And at the time they chose said heroes, I personally had no knowledge of their power/imbalance, so it's not as though:
1. They chose them purposefully because they're cheap
2. I saw and recognized the significance of the choices going on and allowed it to happen. Until now, I've never even considered the concept of not allowing them to play something. Do people do that?
3. With the above choices consciously made, started crying like a baby when things didn't go my way. (last game was pretty pathetic though, I admit. I actually texted them the next day to apologize for pouting so hard. LOL)

It's more a case of us discovering these imbalances as they're being played out.

I'm sure at the time they chose their guys the person who chose Logan, let's call him Scott, looked through the class cards and said, "Treasure Hunter sounds cool. I like moving around the map and searching. This looks like the class for me." And Logan Lashley is the character released with Labyrinth of Ruin intended to be played/represent the Treasure Hunter. Look at the character art. Scott likely picked up the character card and thought, "This guy is the Treasure Hunter, right? Looks cool. Wow. Good Hero Ability. Sick Heroic. I'll be this guy."

I don't think it was a case of looking at all these things and saying, "Oh damn, this is sooooo cheap. Curtis won't stand a chance if we pick this combination of dudes/skills."

Are my friends way to hyper critical of every decision they make in order to win the game at the expense of fun? Yes.

Should it take an hour for them to decide which of five cards they're going to buy and who's going to get them in a shopping step? Hell no.

Are they doing this stuff intentionally because they know it's cheap and they want to win and make it miserable and non-challenging? I don't think so.


I will look at the pics later. Can you also post/tell us what OL cards you have?

When I said you shouldn't let them play the combination of Logan as Treasure Hunter and Elder Mok, I didn't mean to imply that you should strait out not allow it. If such instances occur it's best to tell them that these heroes or in Logan's case the combination of Logan and TH is widely regarded as imbalanced.
I think you even said that even the heroes don't really enjoy the quests and that's the reason most of my gaming friends have no problem of picking something else, when I tell them about these heroes or how such games will likely play out.
Of course for me it was different story. I played the base campaign 2 times and a few started campaigns with only the basegame and the CK, before buying big box expansions. So I've seen a few threads where people were complaining about these heroes and once I actually got the LoR expension and read through the class cards I imidiatly saw how powerfull this class was and how overpowerd it would get on Logan. I still have no idea why FFG is doing nothing about this, because imo it generates bad reputation for the whole Descent system. People thinking that this game is unbalanced just because they were up against one or 2 of the 2 overpowerd heroes/hero&class combinations certainly is bad for this productline.

I'm sorry for judging your gaming group without much information, but I thought you were playing more, when you said that they take so long selecting their heroes every time you start a new campaign.

Btw. for some reason this game really generates a lot of whining, so don't feel bad. Maybe this is the case, because the right moves at the right time can easily make well laid plans obsolete in mere seconds whereas it took more than 10 minutes to lay them out. But who knows.
I guess it takes a little bit more expirience with the game to really see when a game is lost and why it was lost and when and why it's unwinnable. I played this game with people who started to whine that the game is unwinnable one turn before they won.

All in all you shouldn't take this particular campaign as a good example of how this game is generally balanced or of how good you are as an OL. I can only say so much that one could probably win against this party if he is playing this game extremely competitive, has more expirience than the heroes and knows all OL decks, monsters and rules in and out.

So don't let that campaign spoil Descent or even the OL role for you and know that you are very unlucky that your gaming group actually picked this combination of heroes and classes. But as they probably didn't plan for this, they won't pick the same combination again, so I'm positive the next campaign will be much more fun.
 
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Curtis Delaney
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Good reply. I liked reading it.

I suppose I did say "every time" huh? Well, we have done a few runs through the Co-op campaigns, and a couple one-offs, etc. So, I suppose that's why that word was chosen. Sorry to confuse.

I think I might have misled on something else too. The hero players aren't choosing OP at the expense of fun for themselves, just me. (again, not on purpose.) They're having a great time. They get sweet gear, win quests, get the bonus reward for winning. It's all fun for them. Though, I don't see how they can possibly consider it to be a well-earned fun.

The Elder Mok player, my best friend in the group and the guy who wants to play Overlord next campaign, has even said multiple times that he doesn't look forward to playing against Elder Mok when he's the Overlord, and that I should definitely pick him as my hero. So to that extent, at least he's being open minded about how difficult it is and not expecting me to avoid the hero when it's his turn for the pain.

Thing is I don't particularly WANT to play that character. Sure, he's a beast, but he doesn't appeal to me. I just don't pick characters on that basis. I usually pick for flavor and theme. <shrug> Maybe that's why I lose? LOL

Anyway. I'll definitely take with me the knowledge of these two OP heroes/combinations in the future.

I'll post Overlord cards when I get home. I will admit, they're probably not the best cards I could have picked, and I didn't really have a plan going in for what the deck would look like at the end. But each card was chosen with a specific purpose in mind at the time to counter things they are doing regularly and exploit their weaknesses. Starting out with Basic II, especially against this group as it turns out, was a very bad idea. . .
 
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You hold your "Uncontrolled Power" cards like they're gold until Leoric attacks you with beautiful surges- just pray Mok doesn't discard them.
 
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zaltyre wrote:
You hold your "Uncontrolled Power" cards like they're gold until Leoric attacks you with beautiful surges- just pray Mok doesn't discard them.


Yeah....I don't get to use many of them...

Freakin Mok.
 
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WonderSlug wrote:
Freakin Mok.


I read through this - I knew the outcome - long short of it was we learned how insane Elder Mok is during our play. Apothecary and Mok is NUTS. Bard and Mok is NUTS. Mok is NUTS. I should have let my heroes run Nanok as well during that campaign just to get that out of their system!
 
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Here they are.

My group really likes to use fatigue to move as much as humanly possible, so I started out the campaign with "No Rest For The Wicked" and "Imploding Rift." Same idea for mistrust, though it's easier for them to play around and less punishing.

"Blackout" was an attempt to hinder their range ability (duh) once they started getting their better caster weapons and once I realized how truly nasty Apothecary Mok is.

"Call of the Raven" and both copies of "Blood Rage" were bought after I read a thread about good Overlord cards. Both cards have given me decent mileage, enough to make me wish I'd bought them earlier.
 
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Nicklas Hansson
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Unfortunately, none of this helps me and my group. We don't use these two heroes that are supposedly OP, and still I get run over as OL.

What do you guys think of these two suggestions as house rules:


1. Reinforcements are, when available, half the total group size (rounded down) instead of just one unit. This would mean that all big monsters like ettins and dragons are still just reinforcing 1 unit at a time, but groups that consist of 4 or 5 units respawn two units at a time instead. This would buff the fact that you otherwise loose a lot of value when reinforcing for instance a goblin archer instead of a merriod.

2. The OL starting deck hand size is modified by how many times he has lost a quest. So after the OL lost, he will start the next quest with 6 cards instead of 5 (for 4 heroes). Should he lose that quest as well, he will start the next quest with 7 and so on. This would hopefully help counterbalance snowballing, and as soone as the OL wins a quest, his hand size is returned to original rules. This could obviously be used the other way around as well, if the Hereos seem to have a hard time winning, and reduce the OL hand size for every win.


What do you guys think?

 
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Curtis Delaney
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1. I think this solution could prove problematic because not all quests reinforce only one monster at a time. Some reinforce more than 1, some reinforce none, etc. I think the reinforcement rules are a little lacking, but I also think they're designed with quest balance in mind, and tinkering with them too much might swing things too far in the other direction.

2. In a four player game the Overlord starts each quest with four cards in -hand, not 5. I think this is an interesting proposition. It doesn't immediately seem like it would be OP, but at the same time it has the potential to not really change much at all. What if the extra card is a dud? Not so cool. If the Overlord wins a quest after getting this handicap one or two times, would he reset back to default for the next quest? I'm curious to see how this one works out for you.
 
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Shadowmist wrote:
Unfortunately, none of this helps me and my group. We don't use these two heroes that are supposedly OP, and still I get run over as OL.

What do you guys think of these two suggestions as house rules:


1. Reinforcements are, when available, half the total group size (rounded down) instead of just one unit. This would mean that all big monsters like ettins and dragons are still just reinforcing 1 unit at a time, but groups that consist of 4 or 5 units respawn two units at a time instead. This would buff the fact that you otherwise loose a lot of value when reinforcing for instance a goblin archer instead of a merriod.

2. The OL starting deck hand size is modified by how many times he has lost a quest. So after the OL lost, he will start the next quest with 6 cards instead of 5 (for 4 heroes). Should he lose that quest as well, he will start the next quest with 7 and so on. This would hopefully help counterbalance snowballing, and as soone as the OL wins a quest, his hand size is returned to original rules. This could obviously be used the other way around as well, if the Hereos seem to have a hard time winning, and reduce the OL hand size for every win.


What do you guys think?



I would like to give you some tips or at least help you with your problems, but you have given only very vague explanations on how the OL loses every single quest in your group. As much as I gathered is only that the OL seems to have very few monsters to choose from, which could be one aspect of your problematic situation.

Like I said in my group it's the other way around, which makes your situation kind of hard to understand for me and I'm suspecting some kind of rule misunderstandings.

To me your proposed changes seem to imbalance the game, because imo the OL is strong enough as it is.
However you should try what works best with your group.
 
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Nicklas Hansson
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WonderSlug wrote:
1. I think this solution could prove problematic because not all quests reinforce only one monster at a time. Some reinforce more than 1, some reinforce none, etc. I think the reinforcement rules are a little lacking, but I also think they're designed with quest balance in mind, and tinkering with them too much might swing things too far in the other direction.

2. In a four player game the Overlord starts each quest with four cards in -hand, not 5. I think this is an interesting proposition. It doesn't immediately seem like it would be OP, but at the same time it has the potential to not really change much at all. What if the extra card is a dud? Not so cool. If the Overlord wins a quest after getting this handicap one or two times, would he reset back to default for the next quest? I'm curious to see how this one works out for you.


1.Well, quests with no reinforcements would obviously not be affected by this, as well as specific monster respawns. For instance, when the rules say "place 1 goblin on the entrance and one monster from an open group", only the open group would be affected by my rule suggestion.
I think we're gonna try this when we start our next campaign.

2. Right! Don't know where I got 5 from. Yeah, it's a quite subtle balance change with just 1 extra card, but If you keep loosing you keep getting cards, so it should hopefully swing things around. And yes, my idea was that an OL win would reset this bonus to standard rules.
 
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Nicklas Hansson
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DA_Maz wrote:
Shadowmist wrote:
Unfortunately, none of this helps me and my group. We don't use these two heroes that are supposedly OP, and still I get run over as OL.

What do you guys think of these two suggestions as house rules:


1. Reinforcements are, when available, half the total group size (rounded down) instead of just one unit. This would mean that all big monsters like ettins and dragons are still just reinforcing 1 unit at a time, but groups that consist of 4 or 5 units respawn two units at a time instead. This would buff the fact that you otherwise loose a lot of value when reinforcing for instance a goblin archer instead of a merriod.

2. The OL starting deck hand size is modified by how many times he has lost a quest. So after the OL lost, he will start the next quest with 6 cards instead of 5 (for 4 heroes). Should he lose that quest as well, he will start the next quest with 7 and so on. This would hopefully help counterbalance snowballing, and as soone as the OL wins a quest, his hand size is returned to original rules. This could obviously be used the other way around as well, if the Hereos seem to have a hard time winning, and reduce the OL hand size for every win.


What do you guys think?



I would like to give you some tips or at least help you with your problems, but you have given only very vague explanations on how the OL loses every single quest in your group. As much as I gathered is only that the OL seems to have very few monsters to choose from, which could be one aspect of your problematic situation.

Like I said in my group it's the other way around, which makes your situation kind of hard to understand for me and I'm suspecting some kind of rule misunderstandings.

To me your proposed changes seem to imbalance the game, because imo the OL is strong enough as it is.
However you should try what works best with your group.


If I recall correctly, one of the quests we played was the Masquerade ball, and the heroes simply blocked the exit for me. They just had to stand there and slowly pick my guys off, without even trying to unmask the guests. Since I had no respawns and I was being slowly decimated, I had to unmask guests myself in order to try to get more monsters (cultists). But since heroes can heal, and since they can use stamina to move, most of them just held their ground and got to attack twice each turn which simply destroyed my monsters.
I can't remember which monsters I used, but I think it was the hybrid sentinels and something else.
In the second part of the quest, they simply smashed the doors and two shotted eliza farrow, ending the second encounter in less than 20 minutes.


Like I described in my first post, the heroes have made it their common strategy to destroy as many monsters they can in the first few rounds, so that they can then focus on the objective when I just respawn 1 monster every turn.
They have put all the armor in the world on Ashrian, so she just runs into the center of my minions and stuns them while keeping everyone healed. I think she rolls 3 or 4 defence roll dice so it's just a wasted effort to even try to kill her.
If i take tanky monster their warrior can still two shot pretty much anything and if I choose weaker enemies that come in numbers, they are easy pickings for their archer or mage and If I try to block their path I just get a blast attack in the face that destroys almost all monsters in one hit.


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Shadowmist wrote:
DA_Maz wrote:
Shadowmist wrote:
Unfortunately, none of this helps me and my group. We don't use these two heroes that are supposedly OP, and still I get run over as OL.

What do you guys think of these two suggestions as house rules:


1. Reinforcements are, when available, half the total group size (rounded down) instead of just one unit. This would mean that all big monsters like ettins and dragons are still just reinforcing 1 unit at a time, but groups that consist of 4 or 5 units respawn two units at a time instead. This would buff the fact that you otherwise loose a lot of value when reinforcing for instance a goblin archer instead of a merriod.

2. The OL starting deck hand size is modified by how many times he has lost a quest. So after the OL lost, he will start the next quest with 6 cards instead of 5 (for 4 heroes). Should he lose that quest as well, he will start the next quest with 7 and so on. This would hopefully help counterbalance snowballing, and as soone as the OL wins a quest, his hand size is returned to original rules. This could obviously be used the other way around as well, if the Hereos seem to have a hard time winning, and reduce the OL hand size for every win.


What do you guys think?



I would like to give you some tips or at least help you with your problems, but you have given only very vague explanations on how the OL loses every single quest in your group. As much as I gathered is only that the OL seems to have very few monsters to choose from, which could be one aspect of your problematic situation.

Like I said in my group it's the other way around, which makes your situation kind of hard to understand for me and I'm suspecting some kind of rule misunderstandings.

To me your proposed changes seem to imbalance the game, because imo the OL is strong enough as it is.
However you should try what works best with your group.


If I recall correctly, one of the quests we played was the Masquerade ball, and the heroes simply blocked the exit for me. They just had to stand there and slowly pick my guys off, without even trying to unmask the guests. Since I had no respawns and I was being slowly decimated, I had to unmask guests myself in order to try to get more monsters (cultists). But since heroes can heal, and since they can use stamina to move, most of them just held their ground and got to attack twice each turn which simply destroyed my monsters.
I can't remember which monsters I used, but I think it was the hybrid sentinels and something else.
In the second part of the quest, they simply smashed the doors and two shotted eliza farrow, ending the second encounter in less than 20 minutes.


Like I described in my first post, the heroes have made it their common strategy to destroy as many monsters they can in the first few rounds, so that they can then focus on the objective when I just respawn 1 monster every turn.
They have put all the armor in the world on Ashrian, so she just runs into the center of my minions and stuns them while keeping everyone healed. I think she rolls 3 or 4 defence roll dice so it's just a wasted effort to even try to kill her.
If i take tanky monster their warrior can still two shot pretty much anything and if I choose weaker enemies that come in numbers, they are easy pickings for their archer or mage and If I try to block their path I just get a blast attack in the face that destroys almost all monsters in one hit.




Ok there seem to be quite a few odd things here.

-) They put all the armor on Ashrian? You can only wear one armor at a time. I have a hard time imagine how anyone but tomble can have more than 2 defense dice in act I besides very rare instances or the use of fatigue costing skills. (If Arian uses stone skin remember this is only active for one attack roll not for the whole OL turn).

-) If Ashrian moves 10 spaces into the center of your minions and the rest of the hero-party blocks the exit, how can she keep her party healed? If that's her common strategy, she ends up adjacant to a lot of monsters that can easily attack her in your round I guess, or just move them further away. Remember that stun only takes away one action and monsters can't be stunned twice (every condition can only be applyed once to each monster).

-) If the heroes block something I have a hard time imagening how they can attack twice, especially melee heroes. They could only use all their stamina to move, but then they can't use skills to boost their attacks and even then your monsters should be out of reach (more than 4 spaces away). Additionally their ranged heroes can't shoot through blocked spaces, hence they can't shoot through their partymembers, (except maybe the ranger), which would mean they would have to stand in the first row blocking, which makes them easy targets and put the melee heroes even more out of reach.

-) Remember that blast can only target a space occupied by a monster, so it's quite easy to position your monsters, so they won't be affacted by blast. Also remember that blast doesn't affact the adjacant spaces of a monster, but also the adjacant spaces around the targeted space (meaning the blast radious isn't effected by the monstersize).

-) I have a very hard time imagining how your worrior can two-shot tanky monsters alone. Even with the best act I weapon he can only do 5-6 damage max if he is extremly lucky with one attack and that's before defense dice are rolled. Are you sure your heroes were drawing random act I items (5 random items) in the shopping phase they can choose to buy from?

Now for the masquerade ball.

act I:

-) This quest ends when they kill all monsters, so they can't search afterwards. Also I have a hard time imagining how they killed your monsters on the first tile and moved over to the exit and blocking it in the first round.

-) Hybrid sentinels are good monsters, but they are very weak and can take no damage. Imo this was a very bad monster choice if you are up against a lot of damage.

act II:

-) How were they killing eliza in the first round? They have to move a lot of spaces, clear the spiders, open a door, and get a few attacks in on Eliza, who probably stands behind a whole monstergroup. Did you really place your monsters as soon as the first hero moved into the first space of this room?


in general:

-) The longer the heroes take, the stronger the OL gets, especially if there are 2 encounters. This means the OL hasn't the burden to act first. If the heroes just stay back and block your way out, don't engage them, in fact never engage them if they are defensive. Just run away with your monsters (out of their range) if they hold their ground. The next turn they have to spend one action to move up to your monsters, leaving them with only one action for attacking.
Besides you know that you draw one OL card each turn and take all the OL cards into the second encounter right? So this means if they wait for a few turns for you to make the first move, you will easily have the whole OL deck in your hand in the second encounter, especially if your first move never comes.
If the first encounter seems lost, save up all your OL cards and play a lot of them in one turn in the second encounter. That usually shifts the momentum quite a lot.



If everyone else fails I have a nice houserule for you that shouldn't terribly shift the balance if not shamelessly abused:

Quick reflexes: Whenever a monster is killed before it's first activation, it imidiatly can attack once and then is killed.
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