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Victory in Europe» Forums » Strategy

Subject: restrictions on soviets rss

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daron slaybaugh
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have not found it so has anyone found anymore on any soviet restrictions on the soviets DOW on the german's early
 
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Rick Westerman
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The only "restriction", as it were, is that the units in the Urals are not released until 1942. Also, don't forget that the Soviets are actually rather weak at the start. Their units are not very strong -- the strong units can only be built starting in '42 with or without DOW -- and they don't have a leader. This should keep them from doing much damage to the Germans.

But as for a rule restriction ... there is none.

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Michael Dworkin
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The other 'restriction' is that the number of expected Command Points is very low for the Allies through all of 40, 41, and 42, and still rather low through 43 and until 44 begins. Putting Command points into offensives in Russia with low-grade units will leave the Western Allies without the logistics (Command Points) to do "important things."

What kind of "important things" might the Brits and US do with those Command Points? Well, strategic moves -- particularly shipping some armies to the Middle East at a cost of 2 Commands, or reinforcements in battles, or counter offensives in the Med, or naval attacks to clear sea lanes and protect convoys.

All in all, the combination of quality restraints and Command Point limits adds up to VERY ELEGANT portrayal of reality, where the 'restraints' are driven by replications of reality and not by special rules.
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daron slaybaugh
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yes all very valid points. factor in the german leaders and their command points they can lure the soviets in and cripple the soviets without actualy entering soviet territory to triger the ural entry
 
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Interesting line of reasoning.

Personally, it doesn't seem reasonable that when the US and Soviets enter the war, no additional command points are available, especially in a three-player game. To me it would have made more sense that each major power would instead contribute their own cards and command points as they join the war rather than increasing the card values as the game progresses.

Rule shark: What if the Soviet Union doesn't send units into Latvia/Estonia and the Allies manage to land a unit there? The Soviets cannot attack it, and the Germans only at the cost of a DoW against the Soviet Union, right? ;-)

 
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Michael Dworkin
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In response to Dieter's comment,
I've thought about the question of whether to add more Command Points when more nations enter the Alliance.
I've concluded that the current game rules do not need to be changed for that purpose.

Three reasons drive me on this...

1) in game terms, the pacing and tempo seem to work well as is.
2) the need to balance Western vs Russian use of CP ... and US versus British .. reflects a real-world tension.
3) in ViE, there IS a ramp-up in Command Points after Russia and the US enter the war. It is quite large and it shows up in the higher command point on the event cards and in the higher expected annual CP for 1943 (slightly) and 1944 (hugely)

Historically, Roosevelt had to directly over-ride US production planning and US military preferences, right up to the Marshall level, in order to divert US planes to Britain and US trucks and tanks to Russia. Then, later, the decision to go ahead with D Day was directly related to deferring (lowering) the levels of support to Russian offensives via Murmansk and Persia.

Underlying this, of course is that, when the US or RU entered the war, they could bringing more troops and more production...but they really coucln't devote more logistics than they already did in the immediate pre-war period.....at least not at any faster pace than the ramp up of Command Points in ViE from year to year.

In other words, the increase in CP from 1942 to 1944 represents the build up,just at a slower pace than immediately after war-entry.

Does that seem right?
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Maybe CPs are fine by keeping WWII more or less on a historical course in a game between between two players, "The Axis" and "The Allies."

It's a little trickier in a three-player game. Because there's only one winner, we can presume that the Soviet player views the western Allied player as much as a competitor as the Axis player. Lend lease to the Soviet player might be a little less than in history. ;-)

So what do CPs really represent? I would say they represent the logistical competence of a nation's military. After training, and equipping a nation's military forces, CPs indicate how many supply pipelines a nation can project and keep filled. It's a poor commander who launches a campaign without detailed logistics, Rommel not excepted.

A book that I'd highly recommend is Supplying War by Martin van Creveld.

1) Yes it does, as long as the game follows a historical course, which might be fine.

2) Well, I'm a little skeptical as to whether George Patton and Ivan Konev had discussions as to which of them would launch a major operation that season.

3) Yes. Now, if in a three-player game, a crafty Soviet player manages to stay out of WWII (until the very end), this should provide the Allies a big boost in CPs. Then, at exactly the right time . . .

Yeah, I think you have the build-up rationale right. But I don't think that the Soviets and western Allies should have to divide up their CPs between them.
 
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Michael Dworkin
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I think we are agreeing on 80% of what we are saying about Command Points representing the focus of logistics.

But I do want to quibble with your colorful example:

Actually, while Patton and Koniev did not discuss which one would do a major operation each season, their heads of state and bosses did. At the level of Chief of Staff, CIGS, and Stavka, papers proposing operations were shared and discussed and, with the approval of heads of state, resources such as fuel, trucks, planes, and armored fighting vehicles were allocated on basis of expected operations.

GMT's upcoming 'Churchill" game, about the interactions of Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin AND their staffs, addresses precisely this kind of thing.
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Tilman Walk
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In our 3 games so far, the soviets each time attacked the germans vigorously in the back. First time they captured Berlin in late 40. Second Time in 41. First game the german wasnt aware of the threat and the road was open. With Berlin away, no production, suply loss (which both seem to hard, why cant other factory towns in Germany not produce and suply?)
But in the second game the germans put up a defence, but then got squashed between two attacking enemy. The French, british and soviet combined start with 6 fighterplanes against German 1. Thus airpower swings rapidly into allied favour. In this game, the Germans lost their sole Fighter in the Attack on Belgium where the defending british Fighter rolled 1,2,2 as a first, downing the german fighter (which had a "Adlertag" Advantage, if only he would have arrived, ironic).
The British sport their 4 strong Mathilda against the sole 3 strong German tank. Once the western allied get into the offensive the Germans get squashed solid.
There is no way the germans can both defend their Borders East and West plus Romania, so the 2 Ploetsi Ressources go away too. In the Winter turn the Russian D1 Infantry attacks happily and the German superior Quality is naught.
We give this game a third try now, but as of yet I have to see how the german can win the 2 front war that seems inevitable from First Turn 1940. If the German is not lucky enough to both get Hungary and Yugoslavia early, hes eastern front is doomed.
 
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