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Subject: Filial Support Laws rss

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Bitter and Acerbic Harridan
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So I found recently that PA is aggressively pursuing such laws (and so is South Dakota). About 29 states have such laws, despite the social nets like Medicaid. Some of them have since rescinded their laws like Idaho.

Yet apparently, PA leads the way. I have to say that if anything were to convert me to a libertarian, this would be it. It seems an insane law. One that interferes fundamentally with the freedom to associate or not associate between family members.

In PA, it has been applied even to parents in another state that happened to have a son in PA who died with medical bills, thereby subjecting them to the perils of a never-empty nest. In a very real way, there is no personal responsibility left. You are tied like serfs to a feudal lord to family members well beyond the realms of reason.

I'm sure this has some good roots, but it seems fundamentally mistaken to me considering that you can never ever control someone else's personal decisions on financial decisions (and nor should you).


Be aware that these are the states were there have similar laws that are currently unenforced - except SD (yet nursing care homes and other creditors are sure to follow the example my great state of PA):

Alaska, Arkansas, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia.

Article on current law:

http://www.post-gazette.com/business/2014/10/26/Elder-Law-A-...
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Damian
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I had no idea such laws even existed. I concur that that seems absolutely insane.
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damiangerous wrote:
I had no idea such laws even existed. I concur that that seems absolutely insane.


I wasn't either. The $92,000 judgement against a son whose mother who got injured in a car accident and then skipped out on her bills to move to Greece was in 2012. He lost all the appeals despite the fact she had a husband and other kids. Unfortunately for him, he had money so he got stuck with the bill.

The Bangor parents were basically retired when their 47-year old son died. The doctor's office in PA is destroying them with his bills.

What the FUCK, PA.

This is what we are all in for with 29 states with these laws. I'm sure PA is just the beginning. The ACA will make sure of it.
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Xander Fulton
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Well, that seems...a LITTLE insane. And annoying, given my parents are in a doomsday cult (more or less) and believe that since the world is ending tomorrow (since about the 1920s...but any day, now, for reals) they have never saved a penny nor been shy of racking up debt (to this shortly-to-end...*cough*...system).

Grrrrr.....
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Adam Alleman
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What is a doomsday cult, more or less? other than believing that the world is ending?
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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If we were talking about the estate of the deceased I would have no issue with this. If (as seems to be the case) it is not beneficiaries of the estate then I would have major reservations about this. But I do not see why them being dead makes this any more unfair than if they are alive.
 
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Josh
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Big medicine gets all of your money, one way or another. Abuse of the system, check.
 
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Jorge Montero
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I'll take Manhattan in a garbage bag. With Latin written on it that says "It's hard to give a shit these days"
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In Southern Europe you see similar laws happening in a different direction: 25+ year old unemployed men without a job telling the courts that their parents owe them an allowance, once their unemployment benefits run out.

As someone who left his country in many ways to disassociate myself from family members, I have to say I find such laws, in both directions, to make no sense.
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Shawn Fox
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she2 wrote:
This is what we are all in for with 29 states with these laws. I'm sure PA is just the beginning. The ACA will make sure of it.


What does the Affordable Care Act have to do with this? Or did you mean something else by 'ACA'?
 
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jeremy cobert
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Daddys_Home wrote:
What is a doomsday cult, more or less? other than believing that the world is ending?


Green Peace ?
 
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J
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Yep, this is insane. I think the State should be able to put a lien against the estate of the person in question, but nothing more.

Although I suppose people could still game the system by transferring money, up to the legal limit per year, before the person dies to get around that. Or maybe something with trusts or whatnot. But I think existing laws would allow the State recourse if that were to happen?
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Shawn Fox
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jmilum wrote:
Yep, this is insane. I think the State should be able to put a lien against the estate of the person in question, but nothing more.

Although I suppose people could still game the system by transferring money, up to the legal limit per year, before the person dies to get around that. Or maybe something with trusts or whatnot. But I think existing laws would allow the State recourse if that were to happen?


Correct, you can't transfer or sell assets below their value to avoid losing them in a bankruptcy, tons of laws around that. Generally called fraudulent transfer or fraudulent conveyance. Depending on the state the time period can be pretty long, usually extending to a time before you first acquired the debts that led to bankruptcy. For example if you get cancer, transfer all your assets, and then die 5 years later, those assets can be seized by those to whom you owe your debts.
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Shawn Fox
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This reminds me of several months back where that kid decided to go to a college her parents didn't approve of and so the kid sued her parents and won, forcing them to pay for her school of choice. Basically bullshit, once someone is 18 the only one that should be responsible for their debts are themselves unless there is a marriage or business partnership involved.
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Chad Ellis
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XanderF wrote:
Well, that seems...a LITTLE insane. And annoying, given my parents are in a doomsday cult (more or less) and believe that since the world is ending tomorrow (since about the 1920s...but any day, now, for reals) they have never saved a penny nor been shy of racking up debt (to this shortly-to-end...*cough*...system).

Grrrrr.....


The good news is that while they're probably wrong about the world actually ending, their fiat money debt will be meaningless in a Resource Based Economy.
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Chad Ellis
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jmilum wrote:
Yep, this is insane. I think the State should be able to put a lien against the estate of the person in question, but nothing more.

Although I suppose people could still game the system by transferring money, up to the legal limit per year, before the person dies to get around that. Or maybe something with trusts or whatnot. But I think existing laws would allow the State recourse if that were to happen?


Agreed. If Joe has been transferring money to me as a gift then Joe's creditors might have some grounds to come after me if they can demonstrate that Joe and I were doing the transfer as a way to avoid him paying his debts. But outside of that, adults shouldn't be legally on the hook for the bills of other adults (beyond their share of taxes if society at large covers them), whether related or not.

Making kids financially responsible for their parents seems particularly wrong. My kids exist because of choices I made, but they had no say whatsoever in me existing and they have no control over what I do. The idea that if I screw up badly enough I could ruin their lives seems totally unjust.
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Trey Chambers
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I feel like asinine bills like this come about because we're the only Western nation without some kind of reasonable healthcare system.

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