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Subject: Replayability rss

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Gridash
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So now that IA has been out for a while, I'd like to hear non-fanatic opinions about how replayable each campaign scenario is.

A good test would be, playing a specific scenario and then replaying it instantly after, resetting everything.

Is the game still balanced for the IP player vs the Rebels or do the rebels suddenly have a big edge knowing what will come?

Assuming that somebody doesn't want to play Skirmish, is the game really worth it for the campaign alone?

I have a nagging suspicion that the game falls flat on its face once you're past all the scripted scenarios.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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So do, some dont'. I have yet to play anything else than Aftermath twice, but the biggest difference does not come from knowing what might happen. The biggest differences come from having different heroes, different imperial class deck, thus different strategies and more skill, causing different choices. In addition to those, any small change early on will make the rest of the campaign different, even if you happen to get all the same story missions (5 after Aftermath) and side missions (at least 5), and the same forced missions (if any).

(Note: When an event happens, the rebels do not know whether the imperial player has a choice to make, so something different may happen when they play the mission the next time. At least I played imperial player like that - just make the choice and read that one, do not indicate you have a choice.)

In which slot each side mission appears in the campaign will also make them play differently due to different class cards, weapons and other equipment being available, and because of the different threat level.

The campaign is the mode I can get played more, and after we finished our first one last week, me as the imperial player, I'm eagerly waiting to start another as a Rebel hero player. I see us going through the campaign several times getting different experience every time, even before adding the expansions.
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Gridash
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I won't deny that there are a lot of parameters that will make replaying a scenario different than before. But again, is it balanced knowing what scripted events will come?

Hence, resetting a scenario after playing it, using the same paramaters as before in order to test purely the "balanced" aspect to avoid polluting the results with other influences.

Sure, one might play a different character and have different equipment and the IP might have different threat. But the knowledge of what will come MAY be an edge to the rebels, no matter what parameters changed.

It might be less apparant than before because some things changed, but an edge is an edge hence testing it in isolation.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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Gridash wrote:
Hence, resetting a scenario after playing it, using the same paramaters as before in order to test purely the "balanced" aspect to avoid polluting the results with other aspects.

Why would you play the same one again immediately? Because of sore losers or bad winners want a rematch? It's not what the campaign is about.

Of course it is not the same to know what happens in a mission, that's why the rebels do not get to read the campaign book. But even after playing once they do not know if those same effects will happen, because there are a lot of Imperial Player chooses effects in events.


If you want to replay one mission over and over, play skirmish.
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Gridash
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I'm wondering about how much of the balance of the game is affected by the knowledge of the scripted events. Is it a minor swing in favor of the rebels or not?

There is not denying that knowing what will come will give an edge to the rebels, maybe a better question is: To what degree do the rebels get an edge after knowing what will come to happen?

Is it like a minor edge or does the IP really have to play vastly better to pull a win out since he lost his secret info advantage over the rebels.

It is something me and my group are wondering after playing a few scenarios and we're all thinking the same here.

Edit: It's true, the IP does get to choose certain events so that's a point, but still.
 
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Gridash
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a1bert wrote:


*snip*

If you want to replay one mission over and over, play skirmish.


Again, this purely about the balancing factor of the game after replaying the same scenario, not about should somebody replay the same scenario or is it enjoyable to replay the same scenario.

Also, it's not out of the ordinary that a former IP player wants to play Rebels at some point and thus knows the scenarios inside out since he had to study them.

Like I can perfectly see parallel campaigns where a player is the IP player in one and a Rebel player in another, but in a different group.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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After the couple of first missions Rebels should already know that opening doors can cause any number of effects, one of the most predictable being that they see the room is occupied. They need to be prepared for the possible effects whether playing the same mission again or some other mission later. The same applies to interacting with terminals or other tokens. To be able to reach mission objectives they can not choose not to do any those things.

Most of the time even when the imperial player does not have a choice, for example when reserved groups are deployed, the imperial player can still usually decide their placement (either when deployed in a room, or around a deployment point).

So, I would say there is some benefit for the rebels to replay a mission, but most of that has already been learned from general knowledge from other missions.
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Gridash
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a1bert wrote:
After the couple of first missions Rebels should already know that opening doors can cause any number of effects, one of the most predictable being that they see the room is occupied. They need to be prepared for the possible effects whether playing the same mission again or some other mission later. The same applies to interacting with terminals or other tokens. To be able to reach mission objectives they can not choose not to do any those things.

Most of the time even when the imperial player does not have a choice, for example when reserved groups are deployed, the imperial player can still usually decide their placement (either when deployed in a room, or around a deployment point).

So, I would say there is some benefit for the rebels to replay a mission, but most of that has already been learned from general knowledge from other missions.


Alright, so according to you the secret scenario knowledge has negligible impact on the overall balance of the game, aside from the first missions in case of an inexperienced group.

Anybody else?
 
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Ben Waxman

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Consider the movie "Live Die Repeat: Edge of Tomorrow". Knowledge of a few future facts does not inevitably lead to victory. It may improve the rebel chances but the Imperial player can adapt, and some of the fun will be to see who adapts best despite knowledge of the future
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Pasi Ojala
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Gridash wrote:
so according to you the secret scenario knowledge has negligible impact on the overall balance of the game, aside from the first missions in case of an inexperienced group.

I thought you talked about a mission, not the 'game' (campaign).

I did not use the word negligible, and I specifically referred to the uncertainty of not the same effects happening from events due to imperial player choice, which you acknowledged is good to keep replayability up. If an imperial player plays a hero and remembers enough from the mission, they benefit from knowing what the alternatives are, but they still can not predict what the imperial player will choose.

Also, some missions are harder and some easier depending on the heroes used, the stage of the campaign, the imperial class deck etc. Replaying may not tilt the 'balance' so that rebels now have a guaranteed win. You also always have dice, so it's impossible to guarantee anything.

To sum up:
- Playing a mission once will not guarantee an edge to either side.

Someone else should tell what they think or have experienced.
 
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Matti Mäkäräinen
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We actually had that experience. My group is playing two campaigns at the same time as one of us can only come every other time. We played Incoming on the consecutive sessions. The rebels in the latter time knew what to rush for. Then again the luck was on their side, too. The first two objectives were the ones they needed.
 
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Eric Spencer
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I would say that whether or not the rebels have an 'edge' is largely dependent on the mission itself. I can think of some missions where that specific knowledge might help the group make better decisions (assuming they remember all the triggers correctly), and others where that knowledge would offer little or no tactical value.

That said, I can also think of some ways in which the imperial player could use the rebels' knowledge to nudge them towards bad decisions. If done correctly, you could use the fact that the other players are aware of a trap to change their play style.

So, all that to say I think the game would probably stay relatively well balanced (I think some missions would absolutely replay better than others), though it would certainly play differently. It would wager it probably will make things a bit more difficult for the imperial player, but I don't see it being enough to make the game fall flat on its face.
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Ryan Stripling
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I have very limited experience (two games), but I am a little worried about replayability, but only a little. I'm playing as a hero, and we lost the last quest because the heroes' objective hadn't been revealed, but if we had known we would have won. However, I think simply have more experience with the game would have given us enough insight about what sort of objectives the heroes will have that we could have deduced the objective. Sorry that's vague; I'm trying to avoid spoilers.
It might give a slight edge to the heroes in some quests, but it won't ruin the game IMO.
-ryanjamal
 
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Pasi Ojala
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ryanjamal wrote:
I am a little worried about replayability, but only a little. I'm playing as a hero, and we lost the last quest because the heroes' objective hadn't been revealed, but if we had known we would have won.

Play by the rules first. Tell the imperial player to read the rules again if he is not reading you everything they should. Ask to read the second page of the campaign book to you out loud (or read it yourself), that part is not secret information. (The secret information starts at page 4.)

Rebels always know either their mission objective or how the mission proceeds (and they get to know the objective then).

For each mission event (Mission briefing included) the imperial player reads the flavor text and all rules associated with the event. The only case when the imperial player does not read everything is when they have a choice. Then they only read the option they choose, not any option they did not choose.
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Ryan Stripling
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a1bert wrote:
ryanjamal wrote:
I am a little worried about replayability, but only a little. I'm playing as a hero, and we lost the last quest because the heroes' objective hadn't been revealed, but if we had known we would have won.

Play by the rules first. Tell the imperial player to read the rules again if he is not reading you everything they should. Ask to read the second page of the campaign book to you out loud (or read it yourself), that part is not secret information. (The secret information starts at page 4.)

Rebels always know either their mission objective or how the mission proceeds (and they get to know the objective then).

For each mission event (Mission briefing included) the imperial player reads the flavor text and all rules associated with the event. The only case when the imperial player does not read everything is when they have a choice. Then they only read the option they choose, not any option they did not choose.
I read the Imperial guide afterwards and I couldn't see where it directed the IP to tell the heroes the objective. He did tell is how the mission progressed but then after we fulfilled that we were unsure of how to win (because what it seemed to be was ludicrously too difficult for us to complete). The mission was Dialla's side mission Temptation if that helps. I think he played it right.
-ryanjamal
 
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Matti Mäkäräinen
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In Temptation, the IP will tell the Rebels how the mission progresses. And once/if that is achieved, what is the objective (
Spoiler (click to reveal)
in this case, a defeat of an Imperial figure
).

And read Page 2 thoroughly. It does tell you when to read stuff out loud and what not to read (= if the IP has a choice, he will only read out loud the option he chose, not the other ones, nor even mention/hint etc. that there was an option.)


- Kez.
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Pasi Ojala
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Okay, so you knew how the mission progressed and then he read what to do to succeed in the mission, so apparently everything was fine. If you did not understand how to win, you must ask to read it again, and then refer to the relevant rules to make it clear to both sides. If you understand, but can't figure out how to accomplish it, or it is impossible due to too little time left or not suitable heroes, then that's part of the game.

Knowing the final objective from the start will help you make better decisions if you play the mission again, but becoming more efficient, take full advantage of the abilities of characters, and better assessing each situation are gained by playing any mission. It's called experience.

 
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Ryan Stripling
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No, not exactly. Thanks everyone who chimed in on my situation (sorry for accidentally co-opting the thread). Our IP misplayed and only read the flavor text and not our objective at the end, so we're going to replay it. Our experience will be relevant to this since we'll be going into the quest knowing our objective, but honestly it won't make too much of a difference. It will give us an edge, but mainly in the same way that playin a Descent quest (where everything is open book) twice can give an edge; it just helps to see what can go wrong and what leads to success. Because we know exactly what needs to be done, we'll do a few things differently, like I'll make sure I have no strain because I know my abilities will be very useful and we'll push people forward faster, but that's a very slight edge (and really the second is just a general rule of thumb for good play--not getting distracted by all the monsters). So I expect the game will fare well with repeat plays.
-ryanjamal
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Gridash
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Thanks for the replies guys, based on your (honest) experiences/replies, I now know my investment is safe. laugh
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I.M. Jeremic
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We like this game so much we don't mind replaying the same scenarios.
Even though they know what's coming you can still do different stuff can use different things as IP, deploy differently at different times as IP etc.

Another idea is the second time through the campaign use different side stories so those are not necessarily repeated. Or even let rebels pick side stories they want to do.

Allies they use can be different too.
 
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