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Subject: slight change abilities Bene Gesserit rss

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Trizirt
Ukraine
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First, I would like to apologize for my English - I use a translator.
Like to propose a slight change abilities Bene Gesserit (and treachery deck ). I would like to hear the opinion of experienced players.
1. "Truthtrance" cards in treachery deck replaced by "Karama" cards
2. Allies Bene Gesserit can not use "Voice"
3. Bene Gesserit gains the ability "Truthsayers":
You (and your allies) may play "Karama" card (Bene Gesserit may use 'worthless' treachery card) at any time to ask one other player a single yes/no question about the game which must be answered publicly and truthfully. "Truthsayers" can not used against Bene Gesserit.
 
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Glenn McMaster
Canada
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Four Karama cards would unbalance the game towards the Harkonnen alliance - you'll have to address the hand-swap somehow.

Allies of BG not being able to use the voice is a little harsh - BG is deadweight without the voice.

BG only being able to use the truthtrance seems kinda cool.
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Trizirt
Ukraine
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GLENN239 wrote:
Allies of BG not being able to use the voice is a little harsh - BG is deadweight without the voice.
BG only being able to use the truthtrance seems kinda cool.


But allies instead of "Voice" can use "Truthsayers" (not just the Bene Gesserit)

GLENN239 wrote:
Four Karama cards would unbalance the game towards the Harkonnen alliance - you'll have to address the hand-swap somehow.


I do not understand how it will affect Harkonnen alliance?
 
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Glenn McMaster
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Trizirt wrote:

But allies instead of "Voice" can use "Truthsayers" (not just the Bene Gesserit)


Understood, but in practice it functions as a weaker version of the prescience, (about a wash in battle, but the prescience sees the cards). Because Atreides has a city to start, the BG becomes more like a weak version of the Atreides.

Quote:
I do not understand how it will affect Harkonnen alliance?


Most Harkonnen hand swaps take place when Harkonnen is in an alliance. With 4 karamas I think the hand swaps would be brutal. With your variant you might want to dial the hand swap down to swapping cards off the battle wheel or something - that would force the Harkonnen to only swap battle cards, and it would be 2 cards for 1.
 
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Brad Johnson
United States
Crystal Lake
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What if you limited the hand swap to one card? Still could be brutal, especially if you let Hark look at the opponent's hand and pick one to steal.

As for the Truthtrance, we know how this ability causes many problems in practice. I sometimes think Rex did the right thing getting right of Truthtrance, even though I do think it's a very fun, thematic ability in the game. Limiting the use of Truthtrances as the OP suggests might be beneficial overall. However, to avoid the addition of yet more Karamas into the game, what about this as an alternate proposal:

* Keep 2 standard Karama cards in game
* Remove both Truthtrance cards from game
* BG optional ability becomes "May use worthless card as a Truthtrance (instead of as a Karama)".

This would reserve Truthtrances as a BG ability only, but would avoid the problem of adding more Karamas into the game.
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Trizirt
Ukraine
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tempus42 wrote:
This would reserve Truthtrances as a BG ability only, but would avoid the problem of adding more Karamas into the game.

But my goal was to remove "The Voice" from the allies Bene Gesserit and give something in return, such as "Truthsayers". That I had two reasons for this:
- Thematically - "The Voice" Bene Gesserit used for their own purposes, and "Truthsayers" used to their employers (quote from the book "The old Truthsayer, the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam, had her own view of the hidden meaning in Paul's words now.")
- Loosen a bit Bene Gesserit (many believe that makes them strong "The Voice" for the Allies)

And what if to do so:
- Remove both "Truthtrance" cards from game
- Bene Gesserit gains the ability "Truthsayers":
"You may at any time to ask one other player a single yes / no question about the game which must be answered publicly and truthfully. But no more than once per turn."
- Bene Gesserit ally loses ability "Voice" gains the ability "Truthsayers":
If you ally Bene Gesserit, then you may at any time to ask one other player a single yes / no question about the game which must be answered publicly and truthfully. But no more than once per turn. Can not used against Bene Gesserit.

GLENN239 wrote:
Trizirt wrote:

But allies instead of "Voice" can use "Truthsayers" (not just the Bene Gesserit)

Understood, but in practice it functions as a weaker version of the prescience, (about a wash in battle, but the prescience sees the cards). Because Atreides has a city to start, the BG becomes more like a weak version of the Atreides.

But Bene Gesserit may themselves use the "Voice". They will continue to use their tricks, why are they the "becomes more like a weak version of the Atreides"?

tempus42 wrote:
Limiting the use of Truthtrances as the OP suggests might be beneficial overall.

what it is - OP?


In addition, I had an idea how to strengthen Fremen - giving them the ability, such as card "Weirding Way" (from DUNE Variant):
When Battle Resolution occurs: opponent Fremen loses the number of tokens he dialed plus the number of tokens dialed Fremen.
If it is too powerful, you can add any condition. For example, only works if the Fremen in his battle plans does not use a weapon and / or defence.
Turns out pretty thematically and does not violate their "poverty"
 
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Glenn McMaster
Canada
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Quote:
But Bene Gesserit may themselves use the "Voice". They will continue to use their tricks, why are they the "becomes more like a weak version of the Atreides"?


Because the ally is focused on what BG can do for them in their battles, which now would not be the voice but instead would be functionally, nothing. (Truthtrance cooperation does not require alliance so a player is probably better off allying with another faction then negotiating for truthtrance questions from BG when needed).

In terms of the T/T being a weaker form of the prescience, that's basically what it often is - asking to card holdings and battle intentions. It is stronger than the prescience in that it can ask about leaders and intentions, and weaker than the prescience in that you have to burn a card to use it so the supply is more limited.

I'd suggest keeping the deck as is and make it something like that the BG can flip their leaders, (ie, make them not available for another purpose that turn) to gain information. This can be in the form of a T/T question (ie, public) or a written question and answer, (ie, binding and private). Maybe if that format if they flip one or two leaders, (not sure if one is too few or if two is too many) their ally can use the voice in battle.


 
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