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Subject: Premium PnP files sized for US paper - FAIL for A4 and for Letter too! rss

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M.C.Crispy
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The way that the front and backs have been set up appears to require printing on US Letter paper. Anybody got any tips for printing on A4 (you know, the paper that gets used in that minority territory that doesn't qualify for reasonable shipping costs or from local distribution points, which is why we had to fall back to PnP as costs got ridiculous - you know, EUROPE).
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Raithyn
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Re: Premium PnP files sized for US paper - FAIL for A4
I would suggest scaling the pdf by ~97% when you print.
 
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Ægir Æxx
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Re: Premium PnP files sized for US paper - FAIL for A4
My local printer has something called oversized A4 paper. It comes in up to 300gsm thickness but it's much more expensive than regular A4 paper because of the printer needed to run it.

My wife works at an office where she can print all the way up to A0 but only in standard 80gsm thickness. I guess I'll just print out the whole thing out in A3 single sided and mount it to 200 - 250 gsm cardboard with spray-on adhesive. It'll take much longer and require sleeves to be playable but it'll be much cheaper for me.

My local printer would print the whole thing bothsides on 12 pages oversized 280gsm A4 paper for 5000 Icelandic kroners. That is around 25 pounds British.

As a resident of 300.000 people nation, I'm used to getting screwed over by companies one way or another. You just have to learn to not give a fuck and work with what you get.
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Thomas Aigner
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Re: Premium PnP files sized for US paper - FAIL for A4
Printed it on A4 two hours ago with a 100% scale and it worked out fine on my printer
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JR Wr
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Re: Premium PnP files sized for US paper - FAIL for A4
Really?
 
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M.C.Crispy
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Re: Premium PnP files sized for US paper - FAIL for A4
ropya wrote:
Really?
My thoughts exactly. Mine looked fine when I printed it, but once I trimmed it I realised that there was an offset. If there's a way to counteract this is love to know how to do it and still have correctly sized components.
 
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Inquatitis
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Re: Premium PnP files sized for US paper - FAIL for A4
Same issue as most people I guess. For the planet cards the offset is something I could live with since it's the same on all cards, but the offset is much too large for the playmats/AI opponents.

I've just spent half an hour trying all kinds of combinations (scaling to 97%, letter page input to A4 output. The above with switching from flip on short edge to flip on long edge etc.).

I'm getting the final thing anyway, but I'm slightly dissapointed that they didn't take this in consideration, while I did ask about this specifically in the KS comments before the PNP was available.

I suppose I'll just print out the AI opponents on a single page. (As I did my test print in black and white and didn't really notice the offset to back of the planets before printing it in colour on photopaper, though that is entirely my own mistake for being impatient.)
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Inquatitis
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Re: Premium PnP files sized for US paper - FAIL for A4
I figured out how to get at least nicely fitting cards. Choose the option to shrink oversized pages, did a coloured testrun for planets, playermats and secret cards/scoring card and they all alligned almost perfectly. For planets the upper row of cards will have a minimally different top edge.

If I find time I'll upload some pictures of the differences.

The main downside to doing it like this, is your cards will be very small. The normal planet card when printed like instructed on the pages was 6.2cm by 8.9cm, while a planet as printed to make the front and back allign will be 5.4cm by 7.6cm.

When printing as instructed they actually fit perfectly in the card sleeves I used for MtG which was nice.

I would hope that Gamelynn would fix this problem but I doubt it as I doubt that most people would even try and make the PNP themselves.
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Ægir Æxx
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Re: Premium PnP files sized for US paper - FAIL for A4
Beggers Backers can't be choosers... shake
 
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Greg Gresik
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Re: Premium PnP files sized for US paper - FAIL for A4
If it's any consolation, the backs don't line up correctly with the fronts in the US either. whistle Even on US paper, the last card back is off by about 1/4" (enough where it is clearly a different card).

I'm just going to print every other page, leaving the backs blank (for the first few) and sleeve them anyway, I guess.
 
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M.C.Crispy
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Re: Premium PnP files sized for US paper - FAIL for A4
Nikoms wrote:
If it's any consolation, the backs don't line up correctly with the fronts in the US either. whistle Even on US paper, the last card back is off by about 1/4" (enough where it is clearly a different card).

I'm just going to print every other page, leaving the backs blank (for the first few) and sleeve them anyway, I guess.
Not really a consolation. I'll probably end up doing the same as you. Disappointing indeed.
 
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M.C.Crispy
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Re: Premium PnP files sized for US paper - FAIL for A4
mccrispy wrote:
Nikoms wrote:
If it's any consolation, the backs don't line up correctly with the fronts in the US either. whistle Even on US paper, the last card back is off by about 1/4" (enough where it is clearly a different card).

I'm just going to print every other page, leaving the backs blank (for the first few) and sleeve them anyway, I guess.
Not really a consolation. I'll probably end up doing the same as you. Disappointing indeed.
Having had a chance to test with my - specially purchased for this project - US Letter paper, I can confirm that the PnP has been incorrectly setup for printing even on its 'native' paper. This is very, very disappointing indeed.
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Ægir Æxx
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mccrispy wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Nikoms wrote:
If it's any consolation, the backs don't line up correctly with the fronts in the US either. whistle Even on US paper, the last card back is off by about 1/4" (enough where it is clearly a different card).

I'm just going to print every other page, leaving the backs blank (for the first few) and sleeve them anyway, I guess.
Not really a consolation. I'll probably end up doing the same as you. Disappointing indeed.
Having had a chance to test with my - specially purchased for this project - US Letter paper, I can confirm that the PnP has been incorrectly setup for printing even on its 'native' paper. This is very, very disappointing indeed.

And the guys at Gamelyn don't even care enough to address the problem. shake

Whatever...
 
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Peter Rabinowitz
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I'm not sure what the complaint is. Most non-commercial printers won't align two sides properly. That's a mechanical problem and has nothing to do with Gamelyn.

I've done a ton of PnPs and almost always print fronts and backs separately. Then I either sleeve them in clear sleeves or glue one to the other (before cutting). The only time I print two-sided is if the back is a smallish image in the center of the card, thus tolerant of misalignment.

Edited to add: My printed has a particularly large bottom margin so lots of pnps get cut off if I just print as is. I solve this in different ways, sometimes shrinking the image, sometimes importing the image into Scribus and moving it higher on the page, sometime more drastic measures are required. What I never do is whine to the publisher about my printer limitations.
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Ægir Æxx
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kc2dpt wrote:
What I never do is whine to the publisher about my printer limitations.

Good for you. You are a better person than we are.

But, it is possible to do the layout of files differently and perhaps anticipate difficulties that may arise with end-users that lack commercial printing capabilities. They did sell us this product and many of us feel like we did not get the quality we paid for.

I want to like this game, I would love to bring it to events like TableTopDay and spread the word about this game but getting the cold shoulder on a sub-par product does not invoke those feelings. Sorry.
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Peter Rabinowitz
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Using the term "sub-par" implies what was delivered is of lower quality than what other companies deliver. I have never encountered PnP files which will align two sides perfectly in a home printer. Never. And I have made a lot of PnPs. So I do not agree that anything about this product is sub-par.

Edit: On the other hand, a PnP will always be sub-par to a commercially produced product. I have made the occasional PnP which comes close, but those took a fair bit of work. And were glued, now that I think about it.
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Ægir Æxx
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kc2dpt wrote:
Using the term "sub-par" implies what was delivered is of lower quality than what other companies deliver. I have never encountered PnP files which will align two sides perfectly in a home printer. Never. And I have made a lot of PnPs. So I do not agree that anything about this product is sub-par.

Edit: On the other hand, a PnP will always be sub-par to a commercially produced product. I have made the occasional PnP which comes close, but those took a fair bit of work. And were glued, now that I think about it.

Ok, sub-par was not a good choice of words. English isn't my native language, my apologies. I guess I'll go with 'poorly implemented'.

This has nothing to do with tangible products produced commercially. I'm only speaking about the intangible digital product, the .pdf. The layout could've been implemented better. Like e.g. having a US letter version and a world wide A4 version. They could've had one row front side and the second row back side on a single page. That way everything would've aligned correctly and there wouldn't be any need for printing on both sides of the paper. I'm not a designer nor a publisher so wtf do I know, right?

I paid real life money for a product that is poorly implemented but was advertised as a premium PnP title. I find nothing 'Premium' about this product over other free PnP titles that I have assembled in the past.

Of course as an avid PnP'er, we are a niche within a niche and serving our needs probably isn't very cost effective in an already difficult business environment like the boardgaming hobby is.
 
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Greg Gresik
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kc2dpt wrote:
Using the term "sub-par" implies what was delivered is of lower quality than what other companies deliver. I have never encountered PnP files which will align two sides perfectly in a home printer. Never. And I have made a lot of PnPs. So I do not agree that anything about this product is sub-par.

Edit: On the other hand, a PnP will always be sub-par to a commercially produced product. I have made the occasional PnP which comes close, but those took a fair bit of work. And were glued, now that I think about it.
I agree with all of this. The artwork itself is amazing. Most PnP I sleeve and don't print the backs anyway, so for me, it not lining up isn't an issue. I will still play (and absolutely enjoy the heck out of) TEG for the next few months. And then in September, I'll be thrilled again!
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Peter Rabinowitz
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Quote:
... but was advertised as a premium PnP title. I find nothing 'Premium' about this product ...


It is "premium" compared to the free PnP which has very low quality art. I have paid for a few PnPs and that's exactly what I expect for my money - high quality art. Nothing more.
 
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Inquatitis
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Quote:
Most non-commercial printers won't align two sides properly.


I'm printing it on my printer (Cannon c5255)at work, trying every possible setting I can think of, and I can only get it to allign in a way that shrinks everything. We have that printer specifically to print our own booklets and brochures, if you think it's a problem with the printers if a commercial 10k printer can't print it, I don't know what to say to you ...
If you think I'm doing it wrong, please, by all means, tell me how to do it and I'll take everything back. The instructions on the pages don't work though.

Sure I could print everything on single pages and sleeve, but I only upgraded my pledge from the basic game to the deluxe version for the PNP. They charged $8 for the PNP so I did expect them to deliver a product that is not defective or at the very least tested enough to be able to warn people in advance that it will not print properly on the printers that most people will use.

I'm dissapointed that this happend, but I suppose that'll teach me to have faith for KS project creators to do right by their backers.

At least the game itself is fun.
 
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M.C.Crispy
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Inquatitis wrote:
Quote:
Most non-commercial printers won't align two sides properly.
If you think I'm doing it wrong, please, by all means, tell me how to do it and I'll take everything back. The instructions on the pages don't work though.
And that is pretty much my reason for posting. It wasn't my intent to start a flame war, but to highlight an issue that I had encountered and to solicit assistance from others who had printed this project. Haven't yet had anything that constitutes constructive input yet. I'll perhaps try the DiY forum where issues relating to the origin of the project material won't distort the conversation.
Quote:
I'm dissapointed that this happend
Me too. If indeed there's an inherent problem with the file. Something that isn't yet clear.
Quote:
At least the game itself is fun.
I had hoped to discover this by creating a PnP project. Unless I can resolve this issue satisfactorily I guess I'll be waiting to play a copy that somebody else bought. At least that'll save me money.
 
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Nathaniel Hobbes
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I'm disappointed to hear about this problem. When I did the deluxe PnP for TED, it lined up perfectly. Then, the updated cards from additional playtesting were released in a separate file that had exactly this problem. Consequently, I'm waiting to PnP my copy of TEG until this gets handled.
 
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Quote:
At least the game itself is fun.
I had hoped to discover this by creating a PnP project. Unless I can resolve this issue satisfactorily I guess I'll be waiting to play a copy that somebody else bought. At least that'll save me money.[/q]

In my first testprint I didn't doublecheck carefully so I had allready printed it out completely anyway, so I would have considered a waste of ink and paper if I didn't at least play it.

And honestly, it's my favourite 1v1 game(4 games played) and favourite solo game now(more then 10 times played). (Though I'm pretty new to this boardgame hobby so take that as you will)

If you have sleeves, you might as well just print it one-sided now really, as they made clear that the PnP is finished and will not be changed. (At least that's how I interpreted their comment in the KS comment section)
 
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Michael Coe
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Regarding the concerns about how the pnp files line up when printing double-sided. It's important to remember, as other have pointed out, that a perfectly lined up print is highly dependent on the printing machine itself and not the file, we did investigate the files to see if there was an inherit issue with them.

Ultimately we decided to change the layout from horizontal to vertical so that when you print the files, you can use the default setting of "flip on long edge" whereas the previous layout required that you alter that setting to "flip on short edge". While this does make the file more printer friendly, please let us know if the problem is still occurring beyond roughly an 1/8 of an inch.

If you'd like the new version, we've updated the link that you received in your backer email(s). Use that same link to re-download the files.

We have also created an A4 formatted premium pnp of Tiny Epic Galaxies. This EU friendly version has been sent to the KS inbox of backers of the premium pnp. In the future we will make sure to offer A4 formatted files of the premium pnp right out the gate.

Thank you for all the feedback.
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M.C.Crispy
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Thanks Michael, I'll give it a go. Although I'm printing two-sided, I'm doing two-pass printing rather than duplex so it minimises the risk of an offer. I'll try the new files and see how it goes.
 
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