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Subject: Sweden vs. Denmark rss

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Andrew Shumway
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Prussia controls Sweden because of Russian DoW on Sweden. Prussia and Russia are not at war.

France controls Demark because of Prussian DoW on Denmark. Prussia and France are at war.

Prussia marches one Swedish corps over to Christiana, which is ungarrisoned. The same turn Russia breaches and takes Stockholm.

Russia will conquer Sweden at the same time the Swedish corps would conquer Norway for Prussia. Does Prussia get Norway? As far as I can see, the answer is yes.
 
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Robert Hammond
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I'd agree, as 7.7, the Conquest Step, specifies "in any convenient order", which basically makes the step simultaneous. Therefore, the Swedes conquer Norway on behalf of the Prussians and are in turn conquered by the Russians. After they Swedes are conquered, their land forces are then removed as per 10.2.1.1. Regardless of when the Swedes are conquered and removed, the condition of conquest of Norway by the Swedes has already been met at the start of the conquest phase.
 
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Ken
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I think you resolve it with die rolls. France will argue for a different "convenient order." So if France wins, Prussia doesn't get Norway. If Prussia does, then Norway is conquered.
 
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Robert Hammond
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I'd beg to differ. Both 7.7 and 10.2.1 require one month of unbesieged occupation of the capital. Prussia has met that condition at the beginning of the conquest phase and so both 7.7. and 10.2.1 apply and Norway is conquered. The exact order of change of control is irrelevant, since as of the beginning of the Conquest step both Sweden and Norway are both simultaneously conquered.
 
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Ken
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rhammond wrote:
I'd beg to differ. Both 7.7 and 10.2.1 require one month of unbesieged occupation of the capital. Prussia has met that condition at the beginning of the conquest phase and so both 7.7. and 10.2.1 apply and Norway is conquered. The exact order of change of control is irrelevant, since as of the beginning of the Conquest step both Sweden and Norway are both simultaneously conquered.


I generally agree, but 7.7 doesn't say that all conquest happens simultaneously. It even has the problematic "any convenient order" phrase. So when I've been in groups where it's happened, we have used die rolls.

If you play 7.7 as simultaneous, then you're absolutely correct. Which I could certainly see doing and treating the "convenient order" bit as meaning that which flags get changed doesn't matter from a sequence perspective.
 
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Tom Bierschenk
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I agree with Robert in this situation.

We had a similar thing occur in a recent game, in the first few months of 1805. Russia invaded and conquered Naples, but Neapolitan forces conquered Corfu the same turn.
 
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Oscar Oliver
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I would not allow Prussia to use Swedish corps against France owned Norway. Sweden is not at war against France so their troops cannot fight France in any way.

But the situation can arise easyly, I've seen on several games... and expanded : what if an austrian Insurrection Corps besieges a turkish feudal corps in the december Levy phase? My normal ruling is that all actions in a step occur simoultaneaously. So a minor corps would conquer for his owner even if he is also conquered. Say that the news from the surrender came after handing over the new conquest to his former lords.

Those "rulings" are based on game experience rather than any RAW rule.
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Ken
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Teofilus wrote:
I would not allow Prussia to use Swedish corps against France owned Norway. Sweden is not at war against France so their troops cannot fight France in any way.


This is a very, very old argument. The RAW make this legal. Lots of people say that the RAW are wrong and create a house rule that eliminate the potential. So a group that sees this as a potential problem should address that issue completely separately.
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Oscar Oliver
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perfalbion wrote:
Teofilus wrote:
I would not allow Prussia to use Swedish corps against France owned Norway. Sweden is not at war against France so their troops cannot fight France in any way.


This is a very, very old argument. The RAW make this legal. Lots of people say that the RAW are wrong and create a house rule that eliminate the potential. So a group that sees this as a potential problem should address that issue completely separately.


This is why I said
Quote:
Those "rulings" are based on game experience rather than any RAW rule.
 
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Greg Boeser
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I think that you are assuming that once Prussia gains control of Sweden, it is treated as a free state of Prussia for all purposes. This is not true. Until Russia conquers it, or there is a lapse of war between Russia and Sweden, Sweden remains a Minor Neutral. It would only become a Prussian controlled free state if the war lapsed, or if Prussia declared war on Russia. Therefore, Swedish forces cannot be used against French controlled Norway, because France is not at war with Sweden.
 
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Ken
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gozerius wrote:
...or there is a lapse of war between Russia and Sweden, Sweden remains a Minor Neutral.


This is the old argument referred to. There is not only nothing in the RAW that says this, there are rules that directly contradict it (the "assuming control" rules). There are also no rules limiting how the forces of the minor can be moved or used.

Which is why groups should discuss this before the game. Some prefer to play the way that you've described, and that's fine so long as everyone agrees before you get the game rolling.
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Oscar Oliver
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And *that* makes Empires a great, great game, IMHO. No irony.
 
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