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Subject: Viruses, Ambush, and Boss Battles rss

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Jack Bennett
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Hey all, a few questions after three plays:

1) Virus cards say they go back on top of your deck when you discard your hand. Step 7 distinctly says you play all the cards in your hand THEN discard everything you've played, so you're not really "discarding your hand" at this time. I know it's picky, but is the Virus supposed to go on top of your deck at the end of your turn? Or...

2) The reason I'm picky in 1) is because you DO "discard your hand" during a boss battle round. That's the only place in the rules that you're instructed to discard your hand. Does a virus go on top of your deck every boss round? ONLY during boss round? During both boss rounds AND at the end of your turn?

3) Afflictions during a boss battle: do their actions happen? Or do you just discard them and keep drawing until it's over? I assume that the afflictions you have in your hand when the boss battle ends WOULD still happen?

4) I forget the name of the card, but there are a couple cards that say they do not cause you to draw an Alert card when placed in the Ambush point "(just this card)." Does the "just this card" text mean that it only works if you play that card and NO other cards (only one card) into the Ambush point? Or does it mean just cards with that ability? Basically, if I have two or three of these cards in my hand, can I play them both to the ambush point and not draw an alert?

5) The rules say, for boss battles, that you "must" play all your Apex cards down to hunt. But then I read somewhere around here about purposefully throwing the hunt so that the battle ends in one round and you can still buy things. Would "purposefully throwing" the battle mean that you're holding cards back? Or just that you're choosing to fight when you know your hand can't win? The rules seem pretty clear on this (you must play everything) but that post threw me off.

Thanks all!
 
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Mike Paschal
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Virus does go back on top of your deck. The rules are referring to the phase, not really the action of discarding your hand.

Also, the wording is a bit of a hold over from the original rules of Apex where there everyone's hand was played face up at the start of their turn but was still called "your hand".

Affliction abilities most certainly happen to you during a Boss fight. However, Affliction abilities do not happen to a Boss card.

If you are playing a card to the Ambush spot and it says, "do not draw for this card", it is specifically referring to that card. If you play that card and let's say a Hatchling, you will have to draw an Alert card. If you play multiple cards with the same ability and ONLY those cards, then you do not draw an Alert card.


Which copy of the game do you have, the KS or retail version? (B&W rulebook or color)
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Jack Bennett
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Sturm88 wrote:
Virus does go back on top of your deck. The rules are referring to the phase, not really the action of discarding your hand.


Do they go back on top both at the end of your turn AND at the end of each round of battle against a boss?

Quote:
Affliction abilities most certainly happen to you during a Boss fight. However, Affliction abilities do not happen to a Boss card.


If the boss battle ends or you win, you go to step 7 and play any affliction cards in your hand. Are you saying that if the "Battle Continues" and you discard and draw for a new round, you still resolve those afflictions?

So you draw your hand, hunt as much as you can, compare that value to the boss to see what happens (let's say it continues), and then resolve all the affliction cards in your hand before drawing a new hand of six to continue to fight? I will say, that is not at all in the rules anywhere, step 4A says if the fight continues then "all played cards and the player's entire hand is discarded. A new hand is drawn. The player now has the option again of Fight or Flight." Doesn't say here that you resolve all affliction cards before discarding your hand.

Quote:
If you are playing a card to the Ambush spot and it says, "do not draw for this card", it is specifically referring to that card. If you play that card and let's say a Hatchling, you will have to draw an Alert card. If you play multiple cards with the same ability and ONLY those cards, then you do not draw an Alert card.


Perfect.


Quote:
Which copy of the game do you have, the KS or retail version? (B&W rulebook or color)


The retail version.

Any input on question 5? In a boss round, must you play all Apex cards if you choose to fight?

Thanks for the input!
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Jack,

You must play all Apex cards during a boss fight (retail rules). It's a small but very important step during the hunt phase of a boss fight.
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Jack Bennett
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xBino wrote:
Jack,

You must play all Apex cards during a boss fight (retail rules). It's a small but very important step during the hunt phase of a boss fight.


Great thanks!

Any input on the two questions above regarding Viruses and Affliction cards during boss battles? Thanks!
 
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Jack Bennett
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Perfect, so any afflictions in your hand after you hunt and the battle continues do not happen. Afflictions in your hand after you hunt and the battle ends/you win will happen. And obviously whenever you choose flight.

What about viruses? If you hunt and the battle continues, you discard your hand and draw back up before picking fight/flight. Do viruses in your hand at that point go on top of the deck? Or is that only during step 7 that they go on top of your deck?

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Jack Bennett
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Perfect. Thank you!
 
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Lloyd Kochinka
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xBino wrote:
Jack,

You must play all Apex cards during a boss fight (retail rules). It's a small but very important step during the hunt phase of a boss fight.


You must play them all, however, it doesn't state what order you have to play them in. It does state that any non-Apex cards played after Apex cards will reset your hunt value and you will lose all generated hunt value prior to that non-Apex card being played....

So play out 2 Apex cards, then play an egg, then play 2 more Apex cards, then play another egg. You have just reset your Hunt value twice, and lost the fight, but now still have the ability to use buy and hatched dinos or buy evolve cards.
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thaPredator wrote:
xBino wrote:
Jack,

You must play all Apex cards during a boss fight (retail rules). It's a small but very important step during the hunt phase of a boss fight.


You must play them all, however, it doesn't state what order you have to play them in. It does state that any non-Apex cards played after Apex cards will reset your hunt value and you will lose all generated hunt value prior to that non-Apex card being played....

So play out 2 Apex cards, then play an egg, then play 2 more Apex cards, then play another egg. You have just reset your Hunt value twice, and lost the fight, but now still have the ability to use buy and hatched dinos or buy evolve cards.

oh crap, that's huge. I missed that in the rulebook. This is going to help me tons in my games against Rexenator. Thanks so much for clearing that up!
 
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Lloyd Kochinka
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xBino wrote:
thaPredator wrote:
xBino wrote:
Jack,

You must play all Apex cards during a boss fight (retail rules). It's a small but very important step during the hunt phase of a boss fight.


You must play them all, however, it doesn't state what order you have to play them in. It does state that any non-Apex cards played after Apex cards will reset your hunt value and you will lose all generated hunt value prior to that non-Apex card being played....

So play out 2 Apex cards, then play an egg, then play 2 more Apex cards, then play another egg. You have just reset your Hunt value twice, and lost the fight, but now still have the ability to use buy and hatched dinos or buy evolve cards.

oh crap, that's huge. I missed that in the rulebook. This is going to help me tons in my games against Rexenator. Thanks so much for clearing that up!


Look up to Herschel post of the Boss Battle rule book page above. its in Step 1)Boost Your Hand, last line.
 
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Lloyd Kochinka
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Not sure how many of you follow the forums over at die-hardgames, but the play I suggested above, will be and apparently, always was illegal. According to the new rule book, once you play an Apex card, you must play ALL Apex cards at the same time.

Even though the current rules state you will lose stacked Hunt Value if you play a non-Apex card, it is just a really big typo. You are not allowed to play any other cards after you play an Apex card until the entire Hunt/Boss Battle is over.
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Jack Bennett
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Is this "new rulebook" (the third now, I guess?) something we can get our hands on? Or is it the "new" one that's already in the retail version and is wrong?
 
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pusherman42 wrote:
Is this "new rulebook" (the third now, I guess?) something we can get our hands on? Or is it the "new" one that's already in the retail version and is wrong?


It will be the third rule book. There's going to be another Kickstarter and that will add new mechanics to the game, but will also update the rule book, yet again.

You can preview it over at die-hardgames.com
 
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Jack Bennett
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thaPredator wrote:
pusherman42 wrote:
Is this "new rulebook" (the third now, I guess?) something we can get our hands on? Or is it the "new" one that's already in the retail version and is wrong?


It will be the third rule book. There's going to be another Kickstarter and that will add new mechanics to the game, but will also update the rule book, yet again.

You can preview it over at die-hardgames.com


Why bother? I'm sure it'll change again before I'm done reading it.
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Leigh Ryan
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HerschelHoffmeyer wrote:
2.) The Hunt Deck is reshuffled at the beginning of each round after recycling the Game Trail but prior to playing the Environment Card. This was highly recommended by many gamers so this new rule was added.

Ooh, I missed that one. That'll change some things up a bit.
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Andreas Bøttger
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pusherman42 wrote:
Perfect. Thank you!

What did Herschel rule here? Am very much in doubt how to treat Affliction card abilities in a Boss fight myself.
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David A
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Herschel didn't make a ruling, but he's not a very active member here. However, Mike (Sturm88) is an authoritative source.

The Affliction actions affect you in a Boss Battle, but not the Boss. They also gradually clog your Draw Pile (and therefore your hand) making each round of fighting a Boss progressively tougher and tougher.
 
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Andreas Bøttger
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OK - so you *do* gain a flesh wound per Severe Trauma in your hand at the end of your turn/each bout when fighting a Boss? And Virus card *are* put on top of your draw pile?
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After looking across several versions of rulebook, I think maybe there is a rule change for Affliction ability activation due to the revised ability of Dynamic Vitality card.

In second edition rulebook version 2.2 (released Jun 2015, online only) :
Affliction ability is activated during the whole Boss Battle. This rule is same as the Exotic Predator edition a.k.a. the first edition of Apex TDBG.


In second edition rulebook version 2.3 (released Aug-Oct 2015, online & printed rulebook in the current second edition Apex TDBG box :
It doesn't clearly say whether Affliction ability should be activated when it falls into "Battle continues" condition during Boss Battle, instead it does stated "All remaining cards are discarded. The abilities/effects on these cards are not activated".


I strongly suspect the probability of this rule alteration is high because the change of Dynamic Vitality ability makes the elimination of affliction cards less effective (may remove all the afflictions in hand + draw additional cards per removal >> remove up to 2 afflictions).


But, for KS backers who backed upgrade pledge that still don't receive the booster pack (including me), we only have old version of Dynamic Vitality which is much powerful than the new revised one. Thus "Affliction ability is activated during the whole Boss Battle" is a better option to the gameplay balance for those use the old version Dynamic Vitality cards.

Thud105 wrote:
Herschel didn't make a ruling, but he's not a very active member here. However, Mike (Sturm88) is an authoritative source.

The Affliction actions affect you in a Boss Battle, but not the Boss. They also gradually clog your Draw Pile (and therefore your hand) making each round of fighting a Boss progressively tougher and tougher.


Mike's answer (2015, Mar 31) seems referring to the Exotic Predator edition a.k.a. the first edition.

pusherman42 wrote:
Perfect, so any afflictions in your hand after you hunt and the battle continues do not happen. Afflictions in your hand after you hunt and the battle ends/you win will happen. And obviously whenever you choose flight.

What about viruses? If you hunt and the battle continues, you discard your hand and draw back up before picking fight/flight. Do viruses in your hand at that point go on top of the deck? Or is that only during step 7 that they go on top of your deck?


Jack reaction (2015, Apr 02) to the designer Hershel's deleted post seems that at that moment the designer telling Jack the future rule change of the affliction ability towards boss battle "battle continues" condition, which is now officially printed in current rulebook of the second edition game.
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Jeremy Yoder
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I've recently bought and played the game (2nd edition) and had this same question. I think I'm tracking, but it seems unnecessarily confusing. Anyway, tell me if I'm wrong, but this is how I understand it in simplest terms...

Non-Boss Battle Turn: Must play afflictions

Boss Battle Bout resulting in "Battle Continues": Do not play afflictions (discard via "4A: Battle Continues")

Boss Battle Bout resulting in "Battle Ends": Must play afflictions

Works for me, but want to be sure, as it makes a difference. Because at times, when the Boss appears before I'm ready, if I'm holding bad afflictions (Virus and Severe Trauma) and I see my Hunt Points can generate a "Battle Continues", it's better to Fight for one bout to avoid playing them (and take smaller penalty, such as 1 Affliction) and then choose Flight during the next bout.
 
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