Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
27 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Blackbeard» Forums » General

Subject: Historical National Symbols rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Mark Mahaffey
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
GAME ARTIST
badge
GAME ARTIST
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've recieved several emails complaining about the Spanish crest used in the draft art, since it is the modern one adopted in 1981. What's the problem?


Let me know if anyone has definitive information on crests that would work well for these five countries (England, France, Spain, Holland, Portugal) and this time period (c.1690-1730).
arrrh
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Van Overbay
United States
Tennessee
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hello Mark,
Check out Pirates of the Caribbean, Buccaneers, Privateers, Freebooters and Filibusters 1493-1720. By Cruz Apestegui, published by Chartwell Books Inc.

It has a two-page spread (pgs. 154 and 155) featuring flags and banners (with crests) from the time period. There are about 30 shown including the ones you're talking about.

—Vanderdecken

——————————————
"I WILL round this Cape even if I have to keep sailing until Doomsday!" — The Flying Dutchman
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard H. Berg
United States
South Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
There's a fairely good website for historicazl flags - sorry, I can;t remember the exacxt cite - but if you Google something like Spain, Flag, 1600, you'll get all sorts of websites . . .

Cheaper than buying the book, above . . .which sounds good, though.

RHB
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Figueras

Barcelona
Catalonia
msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
A really good site for European heraldry is http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/ (in french). It's a very "scholar" site, with very accurate coats of arms for the countries and timespans included in Blackbeard.

In the lefthand menu of the site you should go to "Géographique", where you'll find all the countries or main geographical regions. Take into account that you'll find both the kingdom coat of arms and the king's coat of arms (not always the same).

Hope it helps.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marià Pitarque

Catalunya
msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
West2 wrote:
I've recieved several emails complaining about the Spanish crest used in the draft art, since it is the modern one adopted in 1981. What's the problem?


Well, I guess it's pretty simple: if you really care about the historical accuracy of your game designs, then that crest is a problem!

Let's imagine a 50-stars and Stripes flag fluttering in Fort Independence, Boston 1781... instead of the historical 13-stars flag, wouldn't it be weird?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Mahaffey
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
GAME ARTIST
badge
GAME ARTIST
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Maria, I was (I thought obviously) kidding with that statement.

Of course I'm interested, and am seeking a definitive source of what insignia ships in this region at this time were most likely to fly for each nationality.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Van Overbay
United States
Tennessee
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Mark,
The book I referenced above shows from the time period the symbols found on a vessel including standards, flags, streamers and broad pennants.
The ones shown are the:

Flag of France
Royal Standard of French Galleys
French Merchant Flag
English Royal Standard
English Admiral's Pennant
English Royal Standard
Flag of the English Company of the Indies
Flag of New England
Union Jack
Spanish Royal Standard
Spanish Royal Flag
Spanish Flag
Flag of Spanish Galleys
Portuguese Royal Standard
Flag of Portugal
Portuguese Battle Flag
Portuguese Merchant Flag
Swedish Royal Flag
Danish Royal Flag
Dutch Flag
Flag of the Dutch Company of the Indies
Flag of the United Provinces
Flag of Malta
Flag of Sicily
Flag of Genoa
Flag of Corsica
Flag of Sardinia
Flag of Venice
Flag of the Turkish Emperor
and the Flag of Morocco


—Vanderdecken

——————————————
"I WILL round this Cape even if I have to keep sailing until Doomsday!" — The Flying Dutchman
 
 Thumb up
4.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Mahaffey
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
GAME ARTIST
badge
GAME ARTIST
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
OK, thanks a lot, Van!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bart Schuring
Netherlands
Deventer
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Holland consisted of the seven united provinces from 1581 until 1794. The states were governed by the states-general. I believe the crest of the states-general is the most appropriate for Holland in the timespan of the game. The crest looks a lot like the present crest, the most striking differance is the red color.
The dutch flag in that time was orange, white and blue in stead of red, white and blue.



I have a book on oceancharting. The only crest I could clearly find in this book was the french one. It is blue with 3 french lillys in gold. I'm not completely sure about this crest though.



Edit: There are some more pictures of the Dutch crest at this website:
http://hubert-herald.nl/Staatswapen2.htm
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marià Pitarque

Catalunya
msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
West2 wrote:
Maria, I was (I thought obviously) kidding with that statement.


I know you absolutely care about it. Sorry about my comments. Take them as a joke too...

Look at the end of this wiki entry: you won't find any flags but an exhaustive (though incomplete) list of sail frigate's names from many countries in the period 1640-1860. In case it could be informative to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigate

The book Van suggested sounds very nice too...

Cheers,

Marià (please, don't forget the accent!)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard H. Berg
United States
South Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
> "I guess it's pretty simple: if you really care about the historical accuracy of your game designs, then that crest is a problem!"

I think it would be even simpler if we all noted the caveat in the BLACKBEARD folder, that ALL of the art you are now looking at is NOT final version . . .it is for the playtest version. Much like typos and misspelling in a rules manuscript, all historically oriented art is subject to editing and repair. Buy it is nice to see that you care.

I would note, tangentially, that we are having a similar flag problem with the new CONQUISTADOR . . .

RHB
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marià Pitarque

Catalunya
msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Hi Mark!

I've found this in the Spanish Army website:

"The flag in the army" (go to "Casa de Borbón", Bourbon's lineage)

http://www.armada.mde.es/esp/CienciaCultura/HistoriayCultura...



This is the galleon's royal flag used by many Spanish frigates around 1710.
It shows the royal coat of arms of Castilla y León together with the Golden Fleece livery collar upon a Burgundy's blue cross.

The Order of the Golden Fleece (in Spanish, Orden del Toisón de Oro) is an order of chivalry founded in 1430 by Duke Philip III of Burgundy. The badge of the Order was suspended from a jewelled collar with the motto Pretium Laborum Non Vile ("Not a bad reward for labour") engraved on the front of the central link, with Philip's motto Non Aliud ("I will have no other") on the back.

With the absorption of the Burgundian lands into the Habsburg empire, the sovereignty of the Order passed to the Habsburg kings of Spain, where it remained until the death of the last of the Spanish Habsburgs, Charles II, in 1700. He was succeeded by Philip of Anjou, a Bourbon.

Hope it helps.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard H. Berg
United States
South Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
"Hope it helps."

Make sure you're around when we starting working on the art for CONQUISTADOR . . .

RHB
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Mahaffey
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
GAME ARTIST
badge
GAME ARTIST
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
O, nice! Thanks! Only comment off the top of my head is to take out the red St. Andrews cross part on your British naval ensign, leaving just the white - since Ireland was not yet part of the United Kingdom at the time...

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Ensign
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roger Bordelon
Canada
Mississauga
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, it's probably not historically accurate, but it's good looking and intuitive for 5 year old kids as well...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Van Overbay
United States
Tennessee
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hello Mark,
Have you found the flags and symbols I sent to be accurate based on comparison with other sources? Just curious, it always seems hard to find a definitive single source when it comes to historical data.

—Van
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Mahaffey
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
GAME ARTIST
badge
GAME ARTIST
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi Van, to be honest I haven't done much more research on this last few weeks - other already-contracted projects are keeping me busy. And some fun reduxes too, item 13 here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/13734
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard H. Berg
United States
South Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
One of the pluses of The Net is how much help people will provide finding seemingly obscure items . . .

RHB
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christian Marcussen
Denmark
Odense C
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Regarding national symbols. Unfortunately there is no clear answer, that many of these nations did not exsist in a way that we consider nations. Therefore you will find loads of symbols. Also - it depends on what you want symbols of. Is it the royal symbol, the naval symbol etc etc.

Whatever you do someone will always be able to question its authenticity, or ask why you did not choose xx instead of yy. So just choose one which atleast is not incorrect, and then decide on the one that you feel looks best, and/or most people will assosiate with the country.

Just my €0.05

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Esteban Fernandez
Spain
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi

Im spanish, and Ive been looking the maps and the tokens, on the GMT website and I have to say that you cant use those, as those are no more than 50 years old.

There is this this http://www.amebasaladeriva.com/2007/01/24/%c2%bfpor-que-la-b... website in spanish (with images) that explains why did we change the flag from the white one (as show up in the post) to the red and yellow in 1785, which is later that the time the game is based.

However as the colors are the same as the english one, wich is the main reason for the change in the flag colors to red and yellow.

But please dont use the new spanish "logo", I think most of the people can agree on the red and yellow, without any other thing, even those are not historically right they will look ok, just write some about it in the "Final notes" in the manual about the decision .
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Luke
Portugal
Lisbon
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Portuguese symbol is not correct. The symbol used in the game sample uses the republican coat of arms created in 1910 (without the crown and with the actual republican flag colors: green and red). The coat of arms in the post by Roger Bordelon is more accurate.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Angel Marina Haya
Spain
Madrid
Madrid
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Hello!

I'm Spanish. I've seen the Spanish Banner used in the playtest and I must say it is a great wrong... Please, before print the defenitive board, please, look the Spanish banner in the link:

http://www.armada.mde.es/esp/CienciaCultura/HistoriayCultura...

You MUST elect the flag labelled "Bandera para las fortificaciones de la Armada durante los siglos XVI y XVII; También se utilizó como Bandera Coronela de Infantería" (Flag of the Navy's Fortifications during the XVIth & XVIIth centuries; Also it was used as the Spanish Infantry Banner).

Please, change it soon. The one you have printed on the playtest board knokes my vision! soblue

Thank you very much!

Angel
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Mahaffey
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
GAME ARTIST
badge
GAME ARTIST
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Spent the morning finally settling on some national symbol designs, some more historical than others (in reality the Spanish didn't switch from white to yellow until after this period, and the Arab one is necessarily generic), but I think all are now clear and appropriate. (oh, I've just realized I misspelled Portuguese, oops)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Luke
Portugal
Lisbon
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Portugal Flag (1667-1706):



Portugal Flag (1706-1816):





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_flag#1667.E2.80.9318...

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/pt-hist.html
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Mahaffey
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
GAME ARTIST
badge
GAME ARTIST
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Below find four different period Portuguese flags, of which the design you show (while admittedly the most common) was originally the royal standard - in addition to being overly complex for this application.



It's also worth noting that standardization was pretty rare in this time period anyway. I'm quite confident in my choices above at this point...
cool

They are representative, readable, distinct, and certainly not ahistorical. Thanks for the interest!

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.