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Subject: What to do when the village always wins? rss

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Tobias
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Hey,

We played this today about 10 times, with 7 and 5 people. And the village always won. Sure there was one time where somebody believed he was village and in the end was outed as a switched werewolf and was killed but still the village won. I have read a lot about the meta game and so on but I still find it very hard to change the group dynamic, mostly because I myself have no experience yet. Most of the times, either nobody said anything or everybody revealed the truth and it was pure deduction. It seems that the chance you were switched is not enough for us to stop trying to "figure it out" at the moment.

So, I'm wondering if you have any hints on how to change our group dynamic. Maybe adding more roles (we played pretty much vanilla).

Or maybe - something I just thought of while typing - do you think it would help to keep a score: you get 1 point if you win as village and 5 points if you win as werewolf or something like this?

Tobias
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Village does not win or lose. Werewolves do not win or lose.

Single players win or lose. Until you understand this, you will not get the game.

Also, remove Seer, add Tanner.

(Never use plain Villagers except for teaching the game.)
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Clyde W
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Try this 7p topsy turvy roleset:

Wolf 2x
Minion
Tanner
Doppelganger
Robber
Drunk
Troublemaker
Villager 2x
 
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Dok Indigo
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Try adding roles that only give little information (Villagers, Insomniac) and remove roles that give much information (Seer, Masons).

Add roles that make things uncertain (Tanner, Drunk, Minion, Robber).

Troublemaker is most often deadly for Werewolves if someone on the werewolf team gets switched with someone on the village team.
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GeekInsight
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One Night is not a team game. Telling the truth can get you killed.

If you're the Seer and you see the Minion. Then you blab about it. Then the troublemaker honestly says he switched the minion with you. Now you've confirmed that you're on the evil team and the minion is on the good team. And the minion can rat out the wolves and win. By telling the truth, you just lost.

So, instead, it's often far better play to make false claims and get reactions from people. Lets say you're the Seer and you see a wolf. Maybe, instead you claim to be the troublemaker and you switched the wolf with someone else. If the wolf believes you and says, "I was the wolf, now I'm someone else!" Then you admit you were lying and get the wolf lynched.

If the real troublemaker comes out and says, nu-uh, I switched you with that person (making you a wolf), then you've got an out. You can say, "No way, I'm the real troublemaker" and try to get the troublemaker lynched. After all, since you're a wolf now, if you get the troublemaker lynched, then you win.

Remember, you want to win individually. If you are on the village team, you want the village to win. But if you've been converted to the wolf team, you want' the wolves to win. If you do everything to help the village win, you'll lose if you got switched in the night.

There's a lot more nuance and the game grows the more you play it. But just telling the truth is almost always a bad strategy for you as an individual player.
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Jeff Wood
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It sounds like your werewolves are having trouble owning a fake role. They should at least be causing everyone else to wonder who is the *real* Robber or the *real* Seer, even the *real* Insomniac.

Sure, everyone can tell the truth, and still it becomes, with good play, a case of who does the table believe more? Yes, the Werewolves can trip themselves up, but they can also stall, misdirect, and be the 'leader' to help divvy up votes to the targets...incorrectly of course.

One last aspect that many miss at the first plays: everyone votes at once, lifting a finger at the start of the count into the air, then pointing it at 'Vote!'. Some groups mistakenly go around the table or let people change their vote. There is no co-op at that moment of choice.

Edit: One more thing new players forget as mentioned above: the goal is not for the Village to win, it is for you to be on the winning side.
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Tobias
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Hi,

thanks for all your insight. I will definitely try the role changing suggestions. Especially tanner sounds like a good one, even though I heard other people say, he shouldn't be included in beginners games.

About the other replies: I know that the game is not a group game. But it is hard to get across to a group used to playing werewolf (one of the reasons I think, it is unfortunate that this is marketed as a werewolf game). Because in werewolf you know your team and you win as a team.

So my challenge is not to understand this but how to teach it to my group (which is also changing a lot, but all used to regular werewolf) so that they understand what the goal is. That's why I was thinking of keeping a score and making winning as a werewolf much higher (maybe even 10:1) to make sure people are worrying more about not letting other people win than about finding out the truth.

About the votes: we did this correctly (everybody at once)
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Dok Indigo
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Some people don't like tanner. It is hard to win as tanner and it most often makes everyone else lose. I think it should be hard to win as tanner, because you make everyone else lose.

If you do not want to lose as village or werewolf you should make it a priority to not get the tanner killed. New players are often happy to not get killed themselves and to find someone that looks suspicious. This also probably leads to not liking the tanner.

Are you using a timer? How long does it run? I'd suggest setting it to 3 minutes, maybe 5 if you really can't get the others to accept less time. The more time you have the easier it is for the team that has higher numbers to figure out the truth.
 
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Can you provide rolesets? I'm guessing your roleset doesn't favor village, but it's worth checking. (For example, you wouldn't want to use mason with 5 players.)

In addition, you should be playing with robber and troublemaker (at least to start), since possibly having your role stolen (and allegiance changed) is a core mechanic of the game. Only if both the robber's target and both the troublemaker's targets are villager (or they don't take an action), is there no switching.

If you're playing with villager/troublemaker/drunk, how do you deal with counter claims? (If two players claim villager, how do you know who the real one is?)

Finally, you can try playing with either the minion or tanner. These roles have incentive to add confusion/suspicion to the village.
 
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Geoff C
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Yes I would like to know what rolesets they are using too...or whether the group just doesn't have any good bluffers in it!
 
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Tobias
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Cinnibar wrote:
It sounds like your werewolves are having trouble owning a fake role. They should at least be causing everyone else to wonder who is the *real* Robber or the *real* Seer, even the *real* Insomniac.


We tried but I find this usually quite hard. It's pretty safe to claim a role like Villager or Troublemaker when you are Werewolf. But I find getting away with claiming Seer or Robber is usually quite hard if everybody is playing very openly. Because you will usually have two people to counter the claim (the Seer and the person she saw or the Robber and the person she robbed). Sure this might not always be the case (for example if the seer saw you) but the odds are pretty high.
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Tobias
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contiguity wrote:
Can you provide rolesets? I'm guessing your roleset doesn't favor village, but it's worth checking. (For example, you wouldn't want to use mason with 5 players.)

In addition, you should be playing with robber and troublemaker (at least to start), since possibly having your role stolen (and allegiance changed) is a core mechanic of the game. Only if both the robber's target and both the troublemaker's targets are villager (or they don't take an action), is there no switching.


We played pretty vanilla as described in the rules, so two Werewolves, Seer, Robber, Troublemaker, 3 Villagers. With 7 people (first 3 games) we also had two Masons because we didn't know that it's so hard for the Werewolves. I see that this was a mistake. But most games were with 5 people and roleset as suggested for beginners in the rules.

I find it kind of disappointing that the rules are obviously not able to make the game work for a beginners group from the start.

I wouldn't say that we have bad bluffers per se. I played Resistance with the same people and this always worked great and was always very close.
 
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Tobias
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Hexendoktor wrote:

Are you using a timer? How long does it run? I'd suggest setting it to 3 minutes, maybe 5 if you really can't get the others to accept less time. The more time you have the easier it is for the team that has higher numbers to figure out the truth.


In fact we didn't since the rulebook only suggested this for bigger groups and only after a couple of games. This might be a good point, though. We will try this.
 
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therobbot wrote:
contiguity wrote:
Can you provide rolesets? I'm guessing your roleset doesn't favor village, but it's worth checking. (For example, you wouldn't want to use mason with 5 players.)

In addition, you should be playing with robber and troublemaker (at least to start), since possibly having your role stolen (and allegiance changed) is a core mechanic of the game. Only if both the robber's target and both the troublemaker's targets are villager (or they don't take an action), is there no switching.


We played pretty vanilla as described in the rules, so two Werewolves, Seer, Robber, Troublemaker, 3 Villagers. With 7 people (first 3 games) we also had two Masons because we didn't know that it's so hard for the Werewolves. I see that this was a mistake. But most games were with 5 people and roleset as suggested for beginners in the rules.

I find it kind of disappointing that the rules are obviously not able to make the game work for a beginners group from the start.

I wouldn't say that we have bad bluffers per se. I played Resistance with the same people and this always worked great and was always very close.


The rules as written worked very well for our group. By the third game, we were starting to become more cautious about claiming our roles, since the troublemaker had switched the seer with the wolf she saw. Once a villager loses the game because they said too much, the game gets better.
 
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Clyde W
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therobbot wrote:
I find it kind of disappointing that the rules are obviously not able to make the game work for a beginners group from the start.
I think the "beginner" roleset is fine for beginners. It teaches you the game, and even allows you to understand that some claims are "safer" than others. As you say, Villager and Troublemaker claims are easier than Seer claims. If you do want to go head-to-head with Seer, you better bring your A-game to the table. Resistance requires spies who fail M1 (typically a good strategy once you're experienced) to do something similar.

You should be playing with Lone Wolf option so that you as Lone Wolf might also be able to bluff Seer with immunity.

After you get comfortable with some of the dynamics of the game (round round 3 or so, so like 20 minutes into playing the game), you can start to introduce more interesting roles that change things up: Tanner, Minion, Doppelganger...
 
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Scott Dye
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Definitely play with a timer of 3-5 min max. It's amazing how the extra pressure changes the dynamic.

One of the recent things that I have read that will help me next time I try to teach this to newbies is that there are TWO main things each player is trying to determine:

1) who the others are (who to vote off)
2) who YOU now are, if any switches took place

I think too often players go into the game only thinking about who the others are and who to vote off based on their original role, and not really trying to determine whether they have changed roles. This has the effect of disregarding their "loss" as a fluke when they get switched. They think of themselves as being betrayed by the game, instead of owning this part of the game and from the outset see if they need to become the betrayER.

Tanner, while many don't like it for beginners, others think it's vital to get others to stop claiming everything openly. Minion and Tanner both force those players to lie in order to have a chance of winning, which Ramos up the uncertainty for everyone.

I pretty much only stick with the base roles for 1-2 rounds (of 3 minutes) as really just pseudo-practice rounds. Depending on the number of players I may keep 1 or 2 villagers - having 1 villager can still be good as an easy bluff (except with only one it means more than one will call it, leading to uncertainty).

If at all feasible, use the iOS app - it's a much better experience, because you can set the times and don't need a moderator.
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Charlie Theel
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The simplest thing is to start using the Lone Wolf variant if you're not and include Tanner and Minion. Take out the Seer as well and I'll be surprised if the Villagers win. Lone Wolf alone should help out though as it gives the Wolf a good chance to have a plausible lie.
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Kyle A
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Would it be considered "cheating" if I were to set up my card a particular way, maybe aligning it with the wood grains on the table, such that if the trouble maker were to switch my card out, I would instantly know it since the card isn't in the exact spot as when I closed my eyes?
 
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alexankh wrote:
Would it be considered "cheating" if I were to set up my card a particular way, maybe aligning it with the wood grains on the table, such that if the trouble maker were to switch my card out, I would instantly know it since the card isn't in the exact spot as when I closed my eyes?

That's why you're supposed to move the cards a little without looking at them at the end.
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alexankh wrote:
Would it be considered "cheating" if I were to set up my card a particular way, maybe aligning it with the wood grains on the table, such that if the trouble maker were to switch my card out, I would instantly know it since the card isn't in the exact spot as when I closed my eyes?
Yes.

The fun of the game isn't knowing if you were switched based on physical evidence, but rather the fun comes from figuring out if you were based on what players are saying and doing.
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Kyle A
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Roger that, I've never actually played, so im just curious as to how everything works
 
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therobbot wrote:
I know that the game is not a group game. But it is hard to get across to a group used to playing werewolf (one of the reasons I think, it is unfortunate that this is marketed as a werewolf game). Because in werewolf you know your team and all used to regular werewolf...


I think you nailed it, as this seems to be the root of the problem. The group is stuck in some kind of lock-step groupthink holding pattern, based on your previous werewolf experiences (and most hidden roles games, for that matter).

Have you showed them videos of other people playing this (people that aren't stuck in a standard werewolf time warp)?
 
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And yeah, people need to remember that they may get switched and that you win or lose based on your new role. This means that honesty can kill you.
 
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It's odd that a lot of people are taking to saying this isn't a team game. It really is. Either one SIDE wins or the other SIDE wins (or the tanner wins).

The fact that you may or may not know what side you are actually on is part of the game. Step 1)try and figure out what side you are on and Step 2) do the best to make a kill on the other side.
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Individual players win or lose with their team. The teams are hidden and dynamic. Saying it is a game of villagers against werewolves set up you for the wrong mindset. YOU want to win, you don't want villagers or werewolves to win.

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