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Subject: Clemency rss

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Matt Murphy
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We have had some pretty heated debates over interpretation of clemency. You can be pardoned at any point on your turn. It also says you get pardoned by one nation only. Can you declare clemency, get pardoned (so you can move through a naval ship sea zone), then later in your turn obtain that nations bounty again (merchant raid) and clemency again.

The card says by one nation but doesn't say once only. This the the crux of our debate.
 
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M. B. Downey
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You cannot do it twice in the same turn, or any turs.
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Carsten Jorgensen
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It does not say on the card, that it is only once per turn. But getting rid of 2 bounties this way, seems to go against the intent of the event. It could be ruled either way, though .
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M. B. Downey
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Tretiak wrote:
You can still attempt a merchant raid and then pay for clemency on the same turn.


Yes, but you cannot use Clemency, move through a location with that nation's warship, raid their merchant, and then use Clemency again.
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Matt Murphy
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Tretiak wrote:
Randor20 wrote:
It does not say on the card, that it is only once per turn. But getting rid of 2 bounties this way, seems to go against the intent of the event. It could be ruled either way, though .


I don't have the text in front of me but I believe it says that "a captain can be pardoned by one nation."


My thought was that doing it twice from the same nation was still one nation, but I agree that I'm stretching the interpretation to the best of my ability.

Thanks for the input!!
 
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Carsten Jorgensen
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Just had a look in the FAQ. One thing about Clemency there is (my bold):

Q: Clemency: If a clemency card is drawn, can a player acquire a new bounty that turn and then immediately dismiss it?
A: Yes it can be used on bounties aquired the same turn.

Since it is "bounties" (plural), this must mean, that you can pay multiple times to get clemency from multiple nations. To me that makes it more likely, that it is fine to pay for clemency a second time to get rid of a new bounty (that you just got from a nation you already had clemency from).
 
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M. B. Downey
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Randor20 wrote:
Since it is "bounties" (plural), this must mean, that you can pay multiple times to get clemency from multiple nations. To me that makes it more likely, that it is fine to pay for clemency a second time to get rid of a new bounty (that you just got from a nation you already had clemency from).


You can acquire more than one bounty from a single action. Saying "it must mean" is incorrect.
 
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Carsten Jorgensen
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downeymb wrote:
Randor20 wrote:
Since it is "bounties" (plural), this must mean, that you can pay multiple times to get clemency from multiple nations. To me that makes it more likely, that it is fine to pay for clemency a second time to get rid of a new bounty (that you just got from a nation you already had clemency from).


You can acquire more than one bounty from a single action. Saying "it must mean" is incorrect.


Ah - but if you get more than one bounty from a single action from the same nation, then you cannot use clemency to get rid of them, since you can only use clemency if you have just 1 bounty from that nation. And I don't imagine you can use clemency when you are in a battle (if the two bounties are from attacking and defeating a naval ship). Though perhaps that is actually possible - eventhough you cannot use non-combat glory cards at that point, events have different rules.

Though you are right in a way. I suppose you could get a bounty from a nation, get rid of it, get one more from the same nation and then get rid of that too. This is the only other way I can interpret "bounties" in the faq answer (maybe I am missing something?). But then it is directly answering the OP's question, that you can indeed use clemency on the same nation more than once on your turn.

I have actually always played it the way, that you could get clemency from mulitiple nations, if you were willing to pay for it. Only after reading this thread have I started to wonder, what the "from a single nation" referes to. Is it just to underline, that the 5 gold you pay is just for that one nation - but that you can do it for muliple nations? Or is it there to say, that you can only do it for one nation at all?
 
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M. B. Downey
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I didn't have the card in front of me so had forgotten that detail.

I think you're just reading too much into the plurality of the phrasing. They just as easily could have said "a bounty" instead of "bounties" without chanigng the meaning.

But I've seen gamers spend a lot of time and energy arguing over the semantics of a ruling when the meaning of the card is fairly clear. A nation is not oging to say "we forgive your piracy" and then you attack their ship and an hour later say "ok, no this time we REALLY forgive your piracy, since clearly you have reformed."

Everyone is free to play her copy of the game as she sees fit, of course.
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Kyle
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Full text of the card:
Quote:
Player Captains may, during their next turn, be pardoned by a single nation by paying 5 Gold.

A nation only offers such a pardon to Captains with no more than 1 Bounty from that nation.


Rules-lawyering and arguing semantics aside, the intent seems clear: one nation, one bounty.
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Chris G
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You can only use it once stop trying to lawyer the text.
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Einmal ist keinmal
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Randor20 wrote:
Just had a look in the FAQ. One thing about Clemency there is (my bold):

Q: Clemency: If a clemency card is drawn, can a player acquire a new bounty that turn and then immediately dismiss it?
A: Yes it can be used on bounties aquired the same turn.

Since it is "bounties" (plural), this must mean, that you can pay multiple times to get clemency from multiple nations. To me that makes it more likely, that it is fine to pay for clemency a second time to get rid of a new bounty (that you just got from a nation you already had clemency from).

Carsten, the "bounties" seems to be plural because each player can do it, hence more than one bounty.

It's clearly meant to only happen once on each player's turn. I agree that it's rules-lawyering.
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Andy Leber
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Desiderata wrote:
Randor20 wrote:
Just had a look in the FAQ. One thing about Clemency there is (my bold):

Q: Clemency: If a clemency card is drawn, can a player acquire a new bounty that turn and then immediately dismiss it?
A: Yes it can be used on bounties aquired the same turn.

Since it is "bounties" (plural), this must mean, that you can pay multiple times to get clemency from multiple nations. To me that makes it more likely, that it is fine to pay for clemency a second time to get rid of a new bounty (that you just got from a nation you already had clemency from).

Carsten, the "bounties" seems to be plural because each player can do it, hence more than one bounty.

It's clearly meant to only happen once on each player's turn. I agree that it's rules-lawyering.


Or also if you happen to gain more than one bounty that turn, you could use it on any one of the bounties.

Edit: Looks like Downy already mentioned this. ninja My reading comprehension is weak today.
 
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Carsten Jorgensen
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kryyst wrote:
You can only use it once stop trying to lawyer the text.


I sure won't .

In here that is. During a game it would be bad, to discuss a rule too much. Then one just need to make a ruling and get on with it. But the main reason I am on BGG, is to get the rules right before playing, so here I really like to do some rules-lawyering (it was this rules-lawyering, that got me the correct answer fully explained. Then it'll be much easier to dismiss another player coming up with this question, when I am playing).
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Matt Murphy
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We both actually said something along the lines of "ok I'm totally gonna lawyer this" when the debate started to take off. Lol

I agree the argument of intent and realism for sure. I based my argument purely in semantics (as I do with most games lol)

Great feedback everyone, thx



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