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Subject: Are you kidding me? rss

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Jay T Leone
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How could this game be worth $100? Does it have better pieces than Twilight Imperium 3? I don't care how good the mechanics are, I better see solid gold pieces!
 
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Michael Webb
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Small company = high production costs.

The game has a lot of bits, it costs a lot to produce, and the company printing it doesn't have enough money to print it in large volume to get a discount.

Beyond this, in the States, the price is further inflated because stores have to import it first.
 
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Jay T Leone
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From what I see in the pictures:

The cardboard tiles look like nothing special. Just another Catan.
The game pieces are non-polished wood. They aren't even as big as a quarter! How cheap can you get? Oh wait...
THERE ARE CHITS IN THE GAME. Yes the flat pieces of cardboard from wargames in the 60s.

This game is far overpriced. Even though you get 1238 pieces, they aren't made with quality. Cardboard chits for heaven's sake... I wouldn't consider that part of the 1238 pieces.

Can't even get a decent box cover let alone a pair of dice.
 
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Jay T Leone
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CortexBomb wrote:
Small company = high production costs.

The game has a lot of bits, it costs a lot to produce, and the company printing it doesn't have enough money to print it in large volume to get a discount.

Beyond this, in the States, the price is further inflated because stores have to import it first.


Yea, importing is costly. I compare this game to Hunting Party and think there's a serious problem with cost. Seaborn Games is a small company, but they managed to keep their game at a very reasonable price ($40) considering with what materials you get.

Didn't consider import costs though. Makes sense, since the box is huge and heavy.
 
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Michelle Zentis
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The company also spends a lot of time developing and playtesting their games, so each game represents a huge time investment. Even in Europe Splotter games retail for 79 Euros, which is about $100.

Honestly, if you think it's too expensive, don't buy it! I'm happy to pay that for it if it increases the chance of another great Splotter game in the future.
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Alexander B.
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Sadly, it is the lack of mass appeal that does this to games and other things.

It happens with books also. If you have a very very low print run for a specialty book that will only appeal to a few hundred to a few thousand people, it can easily cost over $100 whereas the same size popular textbook might be $40, and a top 10 novel might be $25 (all hardback).

Therefore, it is reasonable to argue that it is overpriced for what you get, but having rare and unusual tastes or interests is always going to be expensive. Most of the cost of producing most things is the set-up of the equipment for mass production (renting the press time, loading the inks, loading the cutting dies, etc. etc.), once it is running, the raw materials are a very low % of the cost. So, if the setup cost is $10,000 and the materials per item are $15, then it is easy to see that if I print 100 copies of something, the cost will be around $115 each, but if I print 10,000 copies (due to more people being interested in the item) then the cost becomes $16 each: quite a difference!

In this case, it is probably more like it costs them $30 of which $20 is manufacturing cost, they sell it wholesale for $60 (making $30 a game), the retailer then marks it up to $120 (unfavorable exchange rate now with the Euro), and you can then get 25% off (which the retailer eats the full cut on) for around $90 cost to you. If they then sell 1000 games, that is $30,000 split between 2 guys is only $15,000: this is not much money in real life!

I bought Antiquity and love it Would I have wanted to pay less? Heck yeah, but I feel I got my money's worth.
 
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Jorge Montero
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It seems some people would rather buy games by weight: It's all about getting a good deal for the pieces. Just like the people that buy a PS3 at launch because it's a 'cheap' $600 blu-ray player.

I for one would rather consider my enjoyment of the game. I've played TI:3, but I find it's not worth the price on me. On the other hand, paying for Roads and Boats was a no brainer.

To each his own I guess.
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Greg Durrett
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The way I look at it is that if I can get a great gaming experience without having to construct the game myself, I'm willing to pay a fair bit for it. I just purchased R&B, based partly on the strength of the success of Indonesia in our gaming group, though I'm aware it's a wholly different game.
 
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Wolfgang Kunz
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hibikir wrote:
It seems some people would rather buy games by weight: It's all about getting a good deal for the pieces. Just like the people that buy a PS3 at launch because it's a 'cheap' $600 blu-ray player.

I for one would rather consider my enjoyment of the game. I've played TI:3, but I find it's not worth the price on me. On the other hand, paying for Roads and Boats was a no brainer.

To each his own I guess.


Exactly what came into my mind while reading the post. I have some nice fancy FFG games that are gathering dust and gave me less gaming with all the fancy polished pieces than R&B does. Sure, the quality might not be so high compared to other games but at least there is a game inside.

BTW: The costs for the game even increases because you need a lot of plastic containers / sorting boxes to put all of the 2500 pieces (with the expansion) in an at least "tried orderly fashion".
 
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Werner Bär
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jtrleone wrote:
The cardboard tiles look like nothing special. Just another Catan.

The cardboard tiles fomr TI3 look nothing special, too. Not even another catan, just blue.
And in Roads and boats, there are 'lots' of them. You only use a small part in each scenario.

Quote:
The game pieces are non-polished wood. They aren't even as big as a quarter! How cheap can you get? Oh wait...

Which wooden pieces are you talking about? Mine were not only polished, but coated too. And there's lots of them ... 30 transporters for each color, player pieces, walls, the big mines...

Quote:
THERE ARE CHITS IN THE GAME. Yes the flat pieces of cardboard from wargames in the 60s.

That's the good part. Imagine that would all be wooden cubes. The game is very heavy already; providing 1000 wooden cubes would have made it another $100.

Quote:
This game is far overpriced. Even though you get 1238 pieces, they aren't made with quality.

Not? The wooden parts are very good. The glass stones for the reserach tracks are very nice. The cardboard for the tiles is thick. What else do you want?

Compare it for example with Twilight Imperium 3:
Some settler-like hexes (but much less). Some cards. A few tokens that look like cardboard in the images. And a moderate number of cheap plastic minis that look very ugly unless you paint them. And thats for 60 Euro. Compared with that, Roads & Boats for 75 Euro is a steal.
 
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Anthony Simons
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jtrleone wrote:


Yea, importing is costly. I compare this game to Hunting Party and think there's a serious problem with cost. Seaborn Games is a small company, but they managed to keep their game at a very reasonable price ($40) considering with what materials you get.


Hunting Party is about £40 over here - imported, you see.
 
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I've never seen a flying hogfish. I saw one gliding once, but never flying, not actually flying.
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I purchased Roads & Boats for £65 recently. I could get TI3 for £60, but I don't. Why not? I've tried it, and it wasn't my "cup of tea". It wasn't terrible, I had a good enough time, but I didn't feel the need to own a copy.

On the other hand, I've spent around £82 on the three "A Game of Thrones" sets, and feel like I got a decent whack for my money. Why? Because I really like that game.

Now I figure you can look at comparatives with shipping and what have you, and complain that the shipping cost is high, fair play, but the game is essentially worth what you're happy to pay - if £65 is too much for that game, you won't buy it, if £82 seems fair, you'll suck it up.

I was certain enough that I wanted Roads & Boats to track down a supplier that had actually heard of it (none of FLGS had) to get a copy. I'm certain enough that I don't want TI3 that even when it was initially released at £50, I didn't rush to buy it.

It's easy enough to single out particular bits of a game (lots of chits, lots of small plastics) and criticise the game on that basis - but what do you gain? The producer is unlikely to reduce the price on that basis, I think.

 
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Darrell Pavitt
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If you paid 40 quid for hunting party, you were ripped off, mate. Most people are selling it for £28
 
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Jay T Leone
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Cool, thanks for your input all. If I lived in Europe, I would definitely get Roads and Boats over TI3.
 
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Anthony Simons
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nyhotep wrote:
If you paid 40 quid for hunting party, you were ripped off, mate. Most people are selling it for £28


Well, alright; it probably wasn't £40 but it was over £30 when I bought it (as I recall) and even at £28 is much more than $40 (which is currently around £20).
 
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jtrleone wrote:
How could this game be worth $100?


There are a lot of wood pieces/bits, and the US charges a hefty duty on wood imports, especially if the wood is from Canada. arrrh

This wood comes from the Netherlands, so one can only assume higher duty fees, right?

If you like economic type games, this one is worth it.
 
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Michael Webb
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Hawk wrote:
jtrleone wrote:
How could this game be worth $100?


There are a lot of wood pieces/bits, and the US charges a hefty duty on wood imports, especially if the wood is from Canada. arrrh


Hate to spoil your joke Denis, but I think I am the only American outside of the state department who knows anything about the softwood lumber dispute...ah well.
 
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Barak Engel
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Another thing to keep in mind is that while Splotter is only making an extra $10 or so in this game (to cover higher production costs) over the $80 MSRP TI3, the distributor is making another $10 and the retailer another $20 (just an estimate based on the 50/50/50 rule).

Every $1 increase at the back end translates to $4 at the front end. And in the case of R&B, where boardsandbits were BOTH the distributor and the reseller, they made a neat bundle off of this - while Splotter still didn't make much.

It's the reason why a regular storefront retailer is happy to sell you Catan 3D for a 25% discount, because even at $300 they are still making a $100 profit - eight times as much as they make on selling you a copy of Puerto Rico at $40 MSRP. And that profit is even higher because they need only one transaction to achieve that profitability.

In the case of R&B and Anqiquity I don't care much, but I was a little peeved with Boardsandbits when I saw what I got for Indonesia - another $120 MSRP - and it came with some box damage. Tom still refused to offer something; I suggested he send me the $6 Keythedral expansion - costing him about $4 plus an 80c stamp - as a gesture, but it was refused and nothing else was offered. Considering that I bought R&B, Antiquity, Indonesia and &etc in that order, and his position as both distributor and reseller of these, that was disappointing.
 
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Peter Vrabel
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NOooooooooo!

Not the 'small print runs means higer costs' discussion again. Haven't we had this before. Several times.

Is it really so hard to understand?
 
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Nate Merchant
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jtrleone wrote:
How could this game be worth $100? Does it have better pieces than Twilight Imperium 3? I don't care how good the mechanics are, I better see solid gold pieces!


This is the problem with a lot of players nowadays: kewl plastic bits (and tons of them) = a great game. Must be the reason TI3 is so popular.

I'll just sit back and enjoy my $100 EastFront 2, thanks very much.
 
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Mark Taraba
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I heard the Netherlands had some export policy that forced them to use their postal service and that's why Phalanx and Splotter games were more expensive compared to what you normally get. Anyone have more solid information on that?
 
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Mark Crane
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How hard would it be for splotter to "export" the graphic files comprising the game to a US printer for a small run, thereby knocking $30 off the price?

This hobby needs some millionaire geeks to produce some of these games in small runs. For my benefit1. Who hangs out with Nathan Myrrhvold? Come on, I know you're out there
 
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Tom Muir
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I just recently bought a copy of Antiquity (sister game to Roads and Boats). Its usual retail is $120, however I managed to find a 40% off Ding and Dent at Thoughthammer. All I can say was that after 1 play we were blown away. Just like a good book we could not put it down! Our own kids were telling us to stop playing the game as it was taking up too much of our time. If Roads and Boats is similar to this then the cost price of $120 is well worth it!!!
 
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michael dorazio
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The gameplay alone makes this one worth one hundred bucks to me.
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Natus wrote:
jtrleone wrote:
How could this game be worth $100? Does it have better pieces than Twilight Imperium 3? I don't care how good the mechanics are, I better see solid gold pieces!


This is the problem with a lot of players nowadays: kewl plastic bits (and tons of them) = a great game. Must be the reason TI3 is so popular.

I'll just sit back and enjoy my $100 EastFront 2, thanks very much.


Yes Nate... but EastFront is actually worth $100... the other two being discussed here? Maybe, maybe not.
 
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