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Subject: My shaper deck: How would you go up against it? rss

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Nova Cat
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My Kate deck is called The Kate Train in my local playgroup, and it apparently has no brakes. Aside from the occasional bad draw or misplay, it's pretty much unstoppable against all the corp decks I'm facing. So now, I'm concerned that, if I play against new players, they may get frustrated.

So I wanted to ask, what are the weaknesses of this deck? How would you go about beating it, assuming you were building a corp deck specifically to counter it?

My Little Shaper v2

Kate "Mac" McCaffrey: Digital Tinker (Core Set)

Event (19)
3x Code Siphon (The Source)
3x Diesel (Core Set)
2x Infiltration (Core Set)
2x Quality Time (Humanity's Shadow)
3x Scavenge (Creation and Control)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
3x Test Run (Cyber Exodus)

Hardware (6)
3x Dyson Mem Chip (Trace Amount)
2x Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead)
1x The Toolbox (Core Set)

Resource (5)
2x Synthetic Blood (The Valley)
3x Underworld Contact (A Study in Static)

Icebreaker (6)
2x Corroder (Core Set) ••••
2x Creeper (Humanity's Shadow)
2x ZU.13 Key Master (What Lies Ahead)

Program (9)
2x Magnum Opus (Core Set)
2x Medium (Core Set) ••••• •
2x Net Shield (Core Set)
3x Self-modifying Code (Creation and Control)
10 influence spent (max 15)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to The Valley

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.
 
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Michael Marvosh
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Hmm, being made out of cards, which are made out of paper, I would say it's vulnerable to fire. I'd set it on fire.
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Brad Metz
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Sentries and destroyers, tag n bag with recursion. You look tough, but a well oiled kill deck isn't going to be toothless here. Magnum provides enough of a credit swing that Seasource may not be viable, but that still leaves Snares, Daa Ravens, and Punatives to clear your hand.

This deck seems most strong against 1,000 cuts decks and decks with low-single sub ice. I'd have to build to see how it plays out.
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Steven
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Do my eyes deceive me... or are you playing Code Siphon?

Have you made it work? Is it mainly an early game tutor?
 
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Wesley Austin Kinslow
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Looks like anything with Komainu/Archer/Tsurugi would be really difficult for you to deal with.
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Jacek Wieszaczewski
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Taxing ice + fast corp play. Your killer is weak, you decoder is good for small ice but breaking anything big with it is very costly (4 credits for Lotus Field, 6 credits for Viktor 2.0, 8 credits for Tollbooth), your fracter is good but also not great if you need to break Eli repeatedly and terrible if you want to break Blue Sun's big barriers.

I feel there are multiple corp decks that can do well against this list, but the easiest example could be standard NEH Fast Advance. It would score first Astro before you set up, tax you to death on R&D with Architects, Elis and Pop-ups, then score when they are ready as you have no way to pressure their HQ.
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Neil G
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This is a joke, right? You're not legitimately posting a deck with Creeper as your only Killer and asking us to believe you play with people so incompetent they can't beat it? You're either trolling or nobody you play against owns Architect. The most straightforward, takes 5 minutes to put together NEH list with 2 Biotics, 3 Architect & 3 Eli will CRUSH this deck, to the point you'd be unlikely to win more than one game if you played all day. Hell, a well built HBFA deck running all that *and* a bunch of Ichis could probably keep winning til the cards have cycled out.



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Nova Cat
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I was running Garrote as my killer, but I switched to Creeper because it allows me to run my full rig on a single Dyson Mem Chip (as opposed to needing 2 MU/link). I'm not married to the idea, and I might switch back eventually, but for the time being, the speed is more important to me than the efficiency.
SW_Cygnus wrote:
Do my eyes deceive me... or are you playing Code Siphon?

Have you made it work? Is it mainly an early game tutor?

If the corp doesn't ice up R&D on turn one, I'd be more than happy to Code Siphon out a Magnum Opus. But more often, I use it to fetch my second or third breaker.
 
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Nova Cat
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Vapo wrote:
This is a joke, right? You're not legitimately posting a deck with Creeper as your only Killer and asking us to believe you play with people so incompetent they can't beat it? You're either trolling or nobody you play against owns Architect.

Architect costs me 5 credits to break, assuming I even care to. So what?
 
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Mike Nunes
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I would have to agree with most of the people here. Creeper as your only killer is going to be tough.

Also, why Medium over R&D Interface? It's in faction and is more consistent than Medium. It's strong with Code Siphon, but a well timed purge is going to be a pretty big tempo hit.

I also noticed your only spending 10 Inf. I would Derrick the Mediums for RDI and go work Mimic/Datasucker combo or add Faerie with recursion, like clone chip our test run
 
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Jacek Wieszaczewski
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Novacat wrote:
So what?
So you give the corp two free clicks, knowledge what's in R&D, chance to take the agendas before you can steal them.

The problem of this deck is that you threaten only one central serwer. Which means the corp just stacks whatever taxing ice they have on R&D and will quickly make you click Opus for 2+ turns just to get in, as your breakers are not the most efficient ones. Any corp can build a server which will cost 15ish credits for you to get in, it could be Tollbooth + Eli + Architect (NBN), Viktor 2 + Ichi 1 + Eli (HB), Caduceus + Curtain Wall (Blue Sun), Pup + Komainu + Tsurugi (RP). They will do so quickly (as you run no econ denial) and the server will only get harder for you over time (as you run no ice destruction/derezzing).

Anyway, if you play online, I'm sure you will find people who will show you how to stop your runner easily. If you don't, just go with the deck to any major tournament and people will do the same without teching against you (and not knowing your decklist). With teching (i.e. fast advance with 100% taxing ice and Cyberdex) it should be piece of cake.
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Steven Tu
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Yeah, go play online. I'd recommend Jinteki but I just realised the time it takes to play one game there I could probably do two on Octgn. The shit is rebooting into windows :/
 
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Michele Lupo
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I'd try either a slightly unorthodox deck like butcher shop NBN or space ice Weyland.
An HB Fast Advance would probably work too as would Jinteki with bioroids and brain damage. Komainu is really painful for you as are Tsurugi, all aggressive bioroids, Architect, Archer, the space ice (all of them), Muckraker (maybe), Shinobi, probably the grail suite, Swarm (a five to ten advanced swarm will outright murder you) and the Next suite sounds like a pain too because of the increasingly rising cost. Tollbooth also gives you a small headache.

The key to beating this deck is being able to play from behind, forcing unfruitful repeated runs and not giving it the time to recuperate between runs.

I think you could avoid most of those issues by using Garotte again, switching Scavenge for Modded and R&D interface instead of medium to save the MU or with indexing to really abuse a good opening or a great credits lead.

Also while probably letting architect trigger might be the right choice in this deck (expecially with medium) you can't always afford to do it. Another idea to consider is to find the space for one or two E3 feedback implant to completely offset your weakness against bioroids and multisub sentries.
 
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Zeb
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Your deck seems good against Jinteki PE because of x2 Net Shield, x2 Synthetic Blood and x2 Infiltration, but that's the only competitive matchup I see it winning. As others have mentioned, it seems like your deck is very weak to taxing ice like Tsurugi, Komainu, Architect, Eli, Archer, Curtain Wall, Fire Wall, Hive, Wormhole, Tollbooth, Viktor 2.0, Ichi 1.0 and 2.0, and many more.

Basically, I can't see this deck dealing well with the most prevalent decks in the meta which often include NAPD Contracts and the aforementioned taxing ice. Other than NEH Fast Advance, which is good against everything, most HB and RP decks will prove difficult to beat. Grail is bad news, as is NEXT. I think your deck would do well against NBN rush with TWIY*.
 
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Clyde W
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Why Scavenge?

And if you want to run that breaker, why not Femme as well, so you can move around the Femme token as you need it?
 
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Nova Cat
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clydeiii wrote:
Why Scavenge?

And if you want to run that breaker, why not Femme as well, so you can move around the Femme token as you need it?

Scavenge combos with Test Run, and it's also a backup plan in case one of my critical programs gets trashed, such as if I hit an Archer unprepared.
 
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Zeb
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Novacat wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Why Scavenge?

And if you want to run that breaker, why not Femme as well, so you can move around the Femme token as you need it?

Scavenge combos with Test Run, and it's also a backup plan in case one of my critical programs gets trashed, such as if I hit an Archer unprepared.


If you hit an Archer with Creeper as your only sentry breaker, you'll always be unprepared.
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Daniel D
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Probably just run my typical HB Glacier list, IQ is a pain for Zu to beat, Ichi and Tollbooth over a Caprice/ASH (or if I'm really lucky, Caprice+ASH) scoring server will be fine considering the Magnum economy is marred by the inefficiency of your breakers. Crisium Grid prevents Medium from getting dangerous. Also if you want to let my Architects fire I'll be skipping all the way to the bank (literally, HB credits on your turn are the best), and without the support of Lady on your side my Eli's would be happier than they've been for a long time.

I don't know the quality of your HB players, but any of the usual EtF flavors should be going at least even against your list. Probably winning by a significant margin due to how good HB ICE and ASH are against that list. If you Atman with Datasucker support it might be a different story.
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Danwarr
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OP, can you tell us what kind of Corp decks your group has been playing?
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Clyde W
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Novacat wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Why Scavenge?

And if you want to run that breaker, why not Femme as well, so you can move around the Femme token as you need it?

Scavenge combos with Test Run, and it's also a backup plan in case one of my critical programs gets trashed, such as if I hit an Archer unprepared.
It does, but typically only used to tutor up high-cost breakers like Femme, Garotte, Morning Star, Torch... Code Siphon would help get them out too. A two card combo doesn't really help you when your breakers are so cheap (and even cheaper with Kate).
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wanderingmystic
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Danwarr wrote:
OP, can you tell us what kind of Corp decks your group has been playing?


I have to second this question. Kate's no slouch, but I have to wonder as well.
 
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Nova Cat
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Danwarr wrote:
OP, can you tell us what kind of Corp decks your group has been playing?

One guy has a Blue Sun deck that reportedly does alright, and he also frequently experiments with various Jinteki combinations. Another guy has what you might call an NBN Fast Advance deck, which is alright. I don't get to play with him very often. Most people around here are playing various Weyland decks, since Order and Chaos is new. I think there's one guy playing an HB glacier.

Our playgroup is small and inexperienced. We're pretty much pioneering the Netrunner scene in our city, as there's no preexisting community around here. I may not be a great player, and I may not have a great deck, but I'm still miles ahead of someone who's just starting out, and that's why I made this thread, to see what advice I should offer new players that I may be teaching. So far, the advice I've gotten is largely, "This deck shouldn't be winning. Your opponents must just suck."

You can see how unhelpful that it.
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Danwarr
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Novacat wrote:
Danwarr wrote:
OP, can you tell us what kind of Corp decks your group has been playing?

One guy has a Blue Sun deck that reportedly does alright, and he also frequently experiments with various Jinteki combinations. Another guy has what you might call an NBN Fast Advance deck, which is alright. I don't get to play with him very often. Most people around here are playing various Weyland decks, since Order and Chaos is new. I think there's one guy playing an HB glacier.

Our playgroup is small and inexperienced. We're pretty much pioneering the Netrunner scene in our city, as there's no preexisting community around here. I may not be a great player, and I may not have a great deck, but I'm still miles ahead of someone who's just starting out, and that's why I made this thread, to see what advice I should offer new players that I may be teaching. So far, the advice I've gotten is largely, "This deck shouldn't be winning. Your opponents must just suck."

You can see how unhelpful that it.


This helps a lot actually. Weyland, even after O&C, is probably the weakest faction on the whole with Blue Sun being the one exception. I would strongly encourage your play group to take a look at some good deck archetypes, specifically Worlds RP and standard NEH fast advance. This will help your group to understand some basic deck building principles so you can eventually make your own decks.

Also, make sure newer players are aware of some rules that are generally glossed over such as the Corp can spend 3 clicks to purge all Virus counters and 2 credits and a click to trash resources if the Runner is tagged.

Another thing to go over is general ice strategy, such as taxing principals, when to rez, and what types of ice they should be including in their decks.

As far as your deck goes, with just Creeper and Zu.13 as your primary sentry and code-gate breaker, I could see you having trouble with higher strength sentries and code-gates, but especially sentries. Things like Komainu, Archer, Ichi 1.0, Architect, Grim, and Shinobi. Toll-booth, Wormhole, Lotus Field, and Merlin would all be code-gates that could give you difficulty as well.

Hopefully that helps out a bit.
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Philip Goldfarb Styrt
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Novacat wrote:
Danwarr wrote:
OP, can you tell us what kind of Corp decks your group has been playing?

One guy has a Blue Sun deck that reportedly does alright, and he also frequently experiments with various Jinteki combinations. Another guy has what you might call an NBN Fast Advance deck, which is alright. I don't get to play with him very often. Most people around here are playing various Weyland decks, since Order and Chaos is new. I think there's one guy playing an HB glacier.

Our playgroup is small and inexperienced. We're pretty much pioneering the Netrunner scene in our city, as there's no preexisting community around here. I may not be a great player, and I may not have a great deck, but I'm still miles ahead of someone who's just starting out, and that's why I made this thread, to see what advice I should offer new players that I may be teaching. So far, the advice I've gotten is largely, "This deck shouldn't be winning. Your opponents must just suck."

You can see how unhelpful that it.


I can see how it feels like that is all the feedback you're getting. Try to focus on the helpful parts of what people are saying though. While they say it shouldn't be winning, they're also (at least often) saying *why* they think that--and that's what you should take from it. Try not to lose what's helpful in what's negative.

For instance: a number of people have pointed out that Creeper is weak to multiple-subroutine ice, with Ichi and Archer called out in particular because they have multiple subroutines that trash programs--meaning that if you can't break them because Creeper costs too much, then they can trash things like Opus, your breakers, or Medium--as well as Komainu and Tsuguri because they simply have so many subroutines. A similar point has been made about Zu1e, especially against Tollbooth and Viktor 2.0. Others have pointed out more generally that using all your influence to patch up holes might be wise, which is general deckbuilding advice. Others have pointed out that Architect is stronger than you are treating it to be--which serves both as advice to you along the lines of the first point I mentioned, and as advice to your whole group about which ice to choose, and how to value ice. Several people have noted that fast advance should be a problem for you, which again should be both advice as to what to be worried about as you reach out into the larger Netrunner world and deck-building advice for your corps.

It's great that you and your group are getting into Netrunner, and it's great that you've found a deck that works really well against your group. After all, most if not all deckbuilding is meta-dependent at its core: you don't build against the world (except maybe at Worlds), you build against the people you'll actually play against. Try to take the advice you get in a wider forum like this one less as an attack on you and your group (even if its sometimes phrased that way) and more as pointing out the places where your own meta differs from the larger Netrunner meta. Let whatever negativity comes your way roll off like water off a duck's back, and keep hold of the advice that actually points towards better deckbuilding--which, in one way or another, is most of this thread. Good luck!
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Chris S
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What sort of ice do you meet? How does a typical server look like in your meta? How often do you run?
 
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