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Age of Steam Expansion: 20,000 Rails Under the Sea» Forums » Rules

Subject: Production Rule rss

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Shin Yoo
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If I am not mistaken, you can add a link by replacing one of the track tile by choosing the production action; and this is the only way of having the "towns" on the board. In other words, the purpose of this action is only introducing the "towns" in order to increase the links.

Am I correct?
 
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J C Lawrence
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ntrolls wrote:
If I am not mistaken, you can add a link by replacing one of the track tile by choosing the production action; and this is the only way of having the "towns" on the board. In other words, the purpose of this action is only introducing the "towns" in order to increase the links.

Am I correct?


My reading is that:

a) The only player that can upgrade track is the Production player

b) All track upgrades cost $3/tile plus the standard previous tile cost.

c) Simple track can be upgraded to a 3-exit town or a 4-exit town (ie complex tile). It isn't clear if simple track can be upgraded to a complex tile (crossing or co-existing) without also making it a town. Additionally the upgrade cost of adding an exit to a 3-exit town isn't covered, or of redirecting an exit on a town.
 
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Dave Kudzma
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Clearclaw has the rules right.

The only way to get new towns to deliver to out on the board is to either win the auction (and you get to play a new tile out on the board with a town or production area), or choose the urbanization action.

Otherwise the whole board won't grow at all.
 
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Ludovic GIMET
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Hello,

I try to answer you clearly.

First, the englsih rule :
PRODUCTION – This rule replaces the standard rule. If you select this action then you can upgrade any track tile with a complex tile (with a real or drawn grey town disc). This costs $3 plus any costs accruing from previously built track tiles. All existing links must remain unaltered. The players should place control discs on each new complete or incomplete link created.

It means that the only way to upgrade a tile into a complex tile (with a grey disk, real or drawn) is to take the PRODUCTION action. The cost is 3$ for this hex + the previous costs. For example, if you've built 2 hexes in normal sea + one upgraded tile, it will cost : 1 + (1+1) + (2+3) = 8$.

Is it better ? I do my best to speak a correct english but, in fact, it is still a poor one ;-)

Enjoy,
 
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Shin Yoo
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Okay, now I see! So you can only use the complex tiles by choosing the production action and doing the upgrade. However, whenever you upgrade a normal tile to a complex one, it gets a town disc, thereby increasing the link.

Thank you for the clarification!
 
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J C Lawrence
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ntrolls wrote:
Okay, now I see! So you can only use the complex tiles by choosing the production action and doing the upgrade. However, whenever you upgrade a normal tile to a complex one, it gets a town disc, thereby increasing the link.


Given that the English rules were not written by a fluent English speaker, I don't think the English rules are clear that EVERY tile upgrade must become a town. I know they say that upgrades CAN become towns but must they ALWAYS? Also, can the acting player upgrade as many tiles as they wish assuming they can afford to?

I'm curious about this due to a rather disappointing experience with last night's game. I bounced between Urbanisation to get the deliveries I wanted, and then Production to inject towns in other player's track to increase their delivery lengths so that they were unable to make the deliveries they'd wanted (thus protecting the cubes for me). They couldn't return the favour to me due to track spacing and killing their own delivery chances. Four turns of that and they were so far in debt when I went profitable that we simply called the game.

I remain concerned that the actions are too exclusively useful: Engineer is only useful for building sand, Urbanisation to add cube sources and destinations, Production for controlling Link length via track upgrades and town insertion. Having so many rich actions available dilutes the value of the auction. I'll post some questions and thoughts later after a further play.
 
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Shin Yoo
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While my french is virtually nonexistent, the google language tools seem to do the job. The production section of the original french rule says:

une tuile avec un jeton gris(réel ou symbolisé).

which translates to

a tile with a gray token (real or symbolized)

I think the confusion lies in the fact that, in the english rules, the "town disc" is inside the parenthesis. However it seems like the french rule clearly says that the new tile should have a town symbol, with "(drawn or wooden disc)". Which makes quite a difference.

Combining this with the answers in this thread and the track building rules, I would interpret that the action means both upgrading and adding a town at the same time, which are tightly coupled. You can only use the complex tiles using the production action; you upgrade if and only if you add a town.

It sounds a bit restricted, I agree. I think it would sound more natural if it allowed some flexibility, e.g., just adding a town marker(without "upgrading" to a complex tile), or just allowing you to "build"(not upgrade) a complex tile.
 
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Ludovic GIMET
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Hi,

Tiles with complex tracks can be put by everybody.
Tiles with grey marker can only be put by PRODUCTION action.

Is it clear ?

 
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Shin Yoo
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That is clear, except for one point. Please clarify whether the following paragraph is correct.

"The track building rule says you can only use the complex tiles by upgrading. So even if everyone can use the complex tiles, you still have to upgrade a normal tile to a complex one, and you cannot just build one right away. This upgrade process has nothing to do with the production tile."

If that is correct, then the english rule about production action is quite misleading because it says "complex tile" instead of "a tile with a town". And the french rule translated by Google was actually correct, because it's just about adding a town, and has nothing to do with the complex tiles.

Thank you for your patience
 
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Ludovic GIMET
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ntrolls wrote:
That is clear, except for one point. Please clarify whether the following paragraph is correct.

"The track building rule says you can only use the complex tiles by upgrading. So even if everyone can use the complex tiles, you still have to upgrade a normal tile to a complex one, and you cannot just build one right away. This upgrade process has nothing to do with the production tile."


Correct.

Sorry if the english rule is ambiguous.

Best




 
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Shin Yoo
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The last one, I promise! What is the cost of upgrading to a complex tile when you're building? Is it the same to the normal tile?
 
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Ludovic GIMET
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ntrolls wrote:
The last one, I promise! What is the cost of upgrading to a complex tile when you're building? Is it the same to the normal tile?

No change with the original rule. Of course, you have to add the previous cost to the new one.

Best
 
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J C Lawrence
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Ludo le gars wrote:
Tiles with complex tracks can be put by everybody. Tiles with grey marker can only be put by PRODUCTION action.


In which case the Production action is an immensely powerful action. With it a player can control the route lengths for other players, thereby retaining delivery options for themselves while preventing them from being able to efficiently deliver in the mid-game. How? They simply construct towns in their opponent's track until their delivery Links are too long.
 
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Michael Webb
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Can one buy multiple town markers with only one Production action?

i.e.: If I take production, can I upgrade 2 hexes that round into towns?
 
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J C Lawrence
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CortexBomb wrote:
Can one buy multiple town markers with only one Production action?


Good question. The offensive use of town creation is a core technique in my own AoS:Sun map.
 
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Ludovic GIMET
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clearclaw wrote:
They simply construct towns in their opponent's track until their delivery Links are too long.


Mhhh. Not very easy to get this action each turn, I'm sure you'll need another one (Locomotive or First build for example).

Michael : Only one upgraded tile by a turn. Sorry but it isn't written in english even if it is in french : "Une seule ramification par tour est autorisée".

Hope it is clear,

Have fun,

Ludo
 
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J C Lawrence
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Ludo le gars wrote:
Only one upgraded tile by a turn. Sorry but it isn't written in english even if it is in french : "Une seule ramification par tour est autorisée".


That makes a huge difference, enourmous, and prevents the sort of abusive town creation I referred to. Typically here I've been getting Production in turn 3 (by which time I have 4 Links) and creating 2 to 4 towns in other player's track in order to protect my cubes. The towns are created specifically so that no other player can run for more than 3 or 4 income in the whole turn. I then run for 8 income and set myself up for the same pattern in subsequent turns. Typically with this approach I'll have driven at least one of the other players and sometimes two of them into the bankruptcy death spiral by turn 5, all while safely securing my position for the win.

FWLIW the exact same abusive pattern is not only possible with AoS:Sun, but a core part of play. However on that map it is critically restricted by the fact that players may build only a single route/path, a single "line" of contiguous tiles on each turn. That small change makes all the difference in the world, err, sun.
 
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clearclaw wrote:
In which case the Production action is an immensely powerful action. With it a player can control the route lengths for other players, thereby retaining delivery options for themselves while preventing them from being able to efficiently deliver in the mid-game. How? They simply construct towns in their opponent's track until their delivery Links are too long.


This sounds like something that happened to me on your Sun map....
 
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J C Lawrence
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Verkisto wrote:
This sounds like something that happened to me on your Sun map....


Yep! That's the primary control on Locomotive not being the insta-win-wonderful action on that map. Locomotive goes first, and then all the other players ensure they can't deliver for crap.

Happily for AoS:20 000 rails under the Sea, the Production action isn't quite as powerful -- you can only build one town. Without that limit the Production player in this map can simply abuse the other players into zero-delivery debt-spiral submission.
 
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