Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
24 Posts

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Gaming Related » General Gaming

Subject: Questions for the Dutch (or others who know about them) rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Andrew Prizzi
United States
West Newton
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
1. What's the official name of your country? Holland, the Netherlands, or something else?

2. What differences if any are there in the meaning and usage of the terms "Holland" and "the Netherlands".

3. Where does the term "Dutch" come from since it doesn't seem to stem from either Holland or the Netherlands?

4. Why is the Hague, "the Hague"? If you write a letter to someone in the Hague do you write the "The" on the envelope? Are people who live there "The Haguers"?

I thought these up after reading a conversation on here the other day about the difference between the terms "Great Britain" and "United Kingdom". I'd guess Dutch is somehow related to "Deutsch", but that doesn't make complete sense. From my German (which is a bit foggy) calling Dutch people "Neiders" would make more sense to me. The whole Hague thing has always made me wonder- it's the only city I know of that has it's own "The".

One of the things I enjoy the most about the geek is the ability to talk about a common hobby with people from all over the world, and learn a little bit about them. Thanks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bas van der Meer
Netherlands
Oegstgeest
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
prizziap wrote:
1. What's the official name of your country? Holland, the Netherlands, or something else?

"Nederland" is the official name of our country, so that would be "the Netherlands" in English, or "die Niederlande" in German, or "Pays-Bas" in French, or "Paises Bajos" in Spanish (just to mention a few different languages). BTW: "Koninkrijk der Nederlanden" includes the countries Aruba and Netherlands Antilles.

Quote:

2. What differences if any are there in the meaning and usage of the terms "Holland" and "the Netherlands".

"Holland" is just a part of the country, it is the western part that has the largest cities like Amsterdam, Rotterdam and the Hague. Historically, it's a very important part of the Netherlands. However, often the term "Holland" is used to mean the whole country, especially in during sport events.

Quote:

3. Where does the term "Dutch" come from since it doesn't seem to stem from either Holland or the Netherlands?

You (English-speakers) should know the answer to this question, because we call our own language "Nederlands". However, it may originate from "Diets", a medieval language spoken in parts of the Netherlands and Germany, sort of a cross between German and Dutch.

Quote:

4. Why is the Hague, "the Hague"? If you write a letter to someone in the Hague do you write the "The" on the envelope? Are people who live there "The Haguers"?

In Dutch, this city is called "Den Haag" or "'s-Gravenhage". So if you write a letter to someone in the city, you might even better use one of these names. But the official English name for the city is "The Hague". People who live there are called (in Dutch) "Hagenaren" (or sometimes "Hagenezen").

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bart Grubben
Belgium
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
1) The Netherlands. Note though that in Dutch he singular "Nederland" is used.

2) Holland is a region (now divided into two provinces), that became predominant (economically, largest population etectera) in the 16th century or so. Saying Holland when you mean the Netherlands is what they call a pars pro toto , like when you say England instead of the United Kingdom.

3) Dutch and Deutsch (the German word for "German") have the same ethymologie and as far as I know go back to Teutones/ Teutonic, the German tribe that lived in Northwest Germany.

4) The Hague is called Den Haag in Dutch, or, to complicate matters, 's Gravenhage (try and pronounce that ), which means something like "the garden of the count". I don't know how the name Den Haag came into use; maybe as an abbreviation of the really quite impossible aforementioned 's Gravenhage. Maybe someone from den Haag can chime in here.
Inhabitants of Den Haag are called "Hagenaren" or (more popular) Hagenezen.

Hope this helps.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bart Grubben
Belgium
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Bas, you beat me to it
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bart Grubben
Belgium
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
And so did Kevin!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marcel Sagel
Netherlands
Groningen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
1. The Netherlands

2. "Holland" actually refers to the western part of the country, this happens to be the most inhabited part. Currently it consists of two provinces (North-Holland and South-Holland). Back in the 17th century when "The Republic of Seven United Netherlands" was a major seafaring power, Holland counted as one province (out of seven, obviously) and was the biggest, richest and most active in the seafaring, overseas conquest and trade.
I think it even went so far that many overseas territories in those days were considered to be owned by Holland, and not by the Netherlands. This has led to "Holland" being considered a synonym for "the Netherlands" in large parts of the world (and even in the country itself).

3. I'm not sure about the exact origins of the word but it comes from the Middle Ages / Renaissance period. The Dutch national hymn (written early 17th century) refers to "Duytschen bloet", which makes it sound like we're second-rate Germans. Nearly every Dutchman disagrees with that of course.
But it may have something to do with the Netherlands being a part of the Habsburg (German) empire in the Middle Ages.

Also worth noting is that in the current Dutch language, there is no word resembling Dutch (except "Duits" which means German...). We call ourselves "Netherlanders".

4. I don't know why, it just is. There are more towns with "The" in the name. Many in the Netherlands (Den Bosch, Den Helder), but also in Belgium (De Panne, Le Mans), France (Le Havre), Spain (Las Palmas), Italy (La Spezia). And what do you think Los in Los Angeles means?

People who live in those towns are often not referred to as "The ...-ers", at least not in the Dutch language (Hagenaren, Bosschenaren etc.). How do you call somebody from Los Angeles, Las Vegas or Le Havre?

(And then of course there seems to be a difference between Hagenaren en Hagenezen, but it takes someone who lives in the city to explain the difference)

Hope this helps!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maarten D. de Jong
Netherlands
Zaandam
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
prizziap wrote:
1. What's the official name of your country? Holland, the Netherlands, or something else?
2. What differences if any are there in the meaning and usage of the terms "Holland" and "the Netherlands".

'Kingdom of the Netherlands' is the official name, as we also have a bunch of small little islands somewhere to the north of South America. Noone pays those any attention. 'The Netherlands' is the colloquial name for the West-European patch of ground; 'Holland' is the name for two of its provinces (namely Noord-Holland and Zuid-Holland) bordering on the North Sea. So you should refer to us as 'the Netherlands' unless you specifically want to indicate those two provinces.

You can find a picture of the regional distribution here: http://www.bosatlas.nl/wandkaarten/images/NEDERLAND%20PROVIN...; the two provinces I'm talking about are the brown and yellow one.

Quote:
3. Where does the term "Dutch" come from since it doesn't seem to stem from either Holland or the Netherlands?

Etymology (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=dutch&searchmode=...) informs me that its origins are lost in the mists of time. It was an old word to indicate people who spoke (old-)german, but then gradually took on meaning to mean the Dutch specifically. The history of the evolution of dutch you can find here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franconian_languages.

Quote:
4. Why is the Hague, "the Hague"? If you write a letter to someone in the Hague do you write the "The" on the envelope? Are people who live there "The Haguers"?

Also lost in the mists of time. The original name was 'des graven haeghe', old dutch for 'the forest of the count'. From this it became known as 's-Gravenhage (which is the modern way of writing it), or 'simply' Den Haag. The 'den' refers to the period when we still changed words according to their declension: we haven't done that for at least a century. Texts emphasizing declensions are considered extremely archaic.

And yes, when you write the address on the envelope, you write 'The Hague'; the pronoun is part of the name. However, inhabitants of the city are 'hagenaars', or, in the local slang, 'hagenees' (compare to China-Chinese, but don't pronounce it like that, please---hah'-ghe-nays is correct). I think you could get away with calling us 'hagueners'.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maarten D. de Jong
Netherlands
Zaandam
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mac_s_1 wrote:
(And then of course there seems to be a difference between Hagenaren en Hagenezen, but it takes someone who lives in the city to explain the difference)

Of course there is a difference. 'Hagenaren' are inhabitants of good standing who live in the better parts of the city. 'Hagenezen' are scum ('tuig van de richel', 'gajes') and speak in that awful dialect of theirs (Haagse Harry anyone? ).


I am, of course, a hagenaar. (I was born and raised there for about 17 years or so.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Prizzi
United States
West Newton
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
Thanks to all the Netherlanders for the quick reply as well as any Hagenaren among you.

Growing up in Pennsylvania I knew that the Amish people were called "Pennsylvania Dutch" because of a mispronunciation of the word "Deutsch"- the Amish (or at least most of them) came to America from Germany not the Netherlands. It sounds like use of the Dutch to describe people in the Netherlands may have a similar origin.

thumbsup to the Netherlanders. You replied to my questions quickly, in force, and with consistent answers. (Unlike those British geeks who couldn't seem to agree on what their country was )
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacco Versteeg
United Kingdom
Crewe
Cheshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
cymric wrote:
'Hagenezen' are scum ('tuig van de richel', 'gajes') and speak in that awful dialect of theirs (Haagse Harry anyone? ).


So they're the ones who eat egg & onion sandwiches? ('broodje ei met ui')
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lajos
Japan
Hachiouji
Tokyo
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
prizziap wrote:
4. Why is the Hague, "the Hague"? If you write a letter to someone in the Hague do you write the "The" on the envelope? Are people who live there "The Haguers"?

The 'the' is part of the name of the city of The Hague (and should, therefore, be capitalized). When I write about the game group that regularly convenes at my house in The Hague, I usually call them the The Hague gamers with double 'the'.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeroen Harkes
Netherlands
Voorburg
Zuid Holland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
White Stone wrote:
So they're the ones who eat egg & onion sandwiches? ('broodje ei met ui')


Just for the record, nobody ever eats that. Just like nobody ever put fiftyfive iron scaffolding pipes on the rijswijk square. ('vijvenvijftig ijzeren steigerpijpen op het rijswijkse plein')

Some extra trivia:
Hagenaren live on the sand (dunes) and Hagenezen live on the peat (? dutch: veen) (marsh).

Den Haag is the official name of the town. 's Gravenhave is no longer (officially) used.


mac_s_1 wrote:
People who live in those towns are often not referred to as "The ...-ers", at least not in the Dutch language (Hagenaren, Bosschenaren etc.). How do you call somebody from Los Angeles, Las Vegas or Le Havre?


What are people from Las Vegas called? Vegans?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Crane
United States
Orem
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Here is a short documentary (two minutes) on the Dutch that explains much of their culture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHqfxvquK-k&NR

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alfred
Netherlands
Noord-Brabant
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
minordemon wrote:

Den Haag is the official name of the town. 's Gravenhave is no longer (officially) used.


In contrast to this, 's-Hertogenbosch is still the official name of my hometown, although some Bosschenaren would prefer that to be the unofficial Den Bosch.
As they already sung a long time ago... "Dat gaat naar Den Bosch toe - Zoete lieve Gerritje".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maarten D. de Jong
Netherlands
Zaandam
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
craniac wrote:

*Groan*. You've gotta be kidding me. This isn't 'dutch' at all---Alfred Heineken probably runs the entire beer distribution in this country in his dreams. There's quite a good selection of beer to be found, although it doesn't hold a candle to what you can find in Belgium. The short selection of video clips in the following movie are more representative.

http://www.wereldorientatie.net/Thema8/Cursus%204/Broodje%20...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert van Dalen
Netherlands
Nieuwerkerk a/d IJssel
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
In 1602/1603 The official name of The Hague changed from "Die Haghe" or "Den Hag(h)e" in 's-Gravenhage because the city counsil thought that a more distinguished name. Foreign languages still use the original (pre 1602/1603) name. Source: http://www.denhaag.nl/smartsite.html?id=42875
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Crane
United States
Orem
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
cymric wrote:
craniac wrote:

*Groan*. You've gotta be kidding me. This isn't 'dutch' at all---Alfred Heineken probably runs the entire beer distribution in this country in his dreams. There's quite a good selection of beer to be found, although it doesn't hold a candle to what you can find in Belgium. The short selection of video clips in the following movie are more representative.

http://www.wereldorientatie.net/Thema8/Cursus%204/Broodje%20...


I realize this is innaccurate, but as an American I get a great deal of insight from the ways in which the British satirize Europe (and the U.S.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Geoff Bohrer
United States
Hereford
Arizona
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
First reference I'm finding to the term "Dutch" is Elizabethan English, and seems to refer to anyone speaking a Germanic language. Certainly in following years, Germans, Danes, and Dutch are all referred to as "Dutchmen". So I'd guess it stems from German self-reference as Deutsch, and the general similarity of accents to the English ear. But that's purely my guess.

By the mid 1700's, in the American colonies, anyone speaking English with a Germanic-sounding accent is referred to as Pennsylvania Dutch (most of whom were Saxon Germans).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick West
Scotland
Edinburgh
Midlothian
flag msg tools
"Only two things are infinite; the universe and human stupidity....
badge
....and I'm not certain about the universe." Albert Einstein
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Okay then - so why do so many grown up-Dutch drink a glass of milk with their lunch?

Not since junior school have I seen so much milk drunk as in the Roayl Dutch Shell staff canteen in Rotterdam.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maarten D. de Jong
Netherlands
Zaandam
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Is there anything wrong with drinking milk as an adult?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bart Grubben
Belgium
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Okay then - so why do so many grown up-Dutch drink a glass of milk with their lunch?



That, my friend, is a well kept secret that I can only reveal to you if you tell me why the Brits drink their beer tepid
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Luke Morris
England
Faversham
Kent
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I love the Dutch! The Dutch, The Danes, The Swedes....Mmm Northern European people are quite frankly stunning human specimens, cultured, friendly and attractive!

British "ales" are flat and not fizzy in any way - many have been brewed the same way for hundreds of years before refrigeration was a twinkle in anyone's eye.
Lagers and bitters are often served chilled. It's a falacy that we drink lagers and beers warm in the UK. Nothing better than a nice cool Grolsch in a beer garden at the local pub on a warm summer's evening.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bart Grubben
Belgium
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That's a cute avatar you have!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.