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Subject: Yet another tactics cards question. rss

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Jeff Dawson
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I know, I know another post on tactics card and "resolving the flag issues". A couple of questions based on some statements made in other posts.


1) Tactics cards are not used in proving flags.


2) All the cards on the table, and *only* the cards on the table, are used to make proofs. Cards in either player's hand do not count.


First of all, are both of these questions true. I don't have a copy of the rules (and did not see them in the files if someone would like to post them).

1) Tactics cards are not used in proving flags.

I understand that this is absolutely necessary, otherwise no flag could ever be truly claimed until late in the game when the mud and fog and trader and so forth have been played. (IE I have a red 1-2-3 and my opponent has two fives. He cannot say "I 'could' play the fog or deserter or fill-in-the-blank at some point and beat you.")

My question revolves around this. I have red 2-3 and my opponent just played his third 5. The red 1 and 4 are on the table. No leaders are showing though, so technically my card "is" still in the deck. Can he claim the flag based on the fact "Tactics cards are not used in proving flags."? In other words, are the troop cards on the table alone proof enough for him to claim a flag.

My understanding is that no tactic card can be considered in a proof, unless it is on the table. So he can claim it. I cannot claim, "My card is still in the deck".

2) All the cards on the table, and *only* the cards on the table, are used to make proofs. Cards in either player's hand do not count.

I understand that I cannot claim a flag based on information in my hand. I have three 8's and my opponent has red 2-3. There is a red 1 on the table and I have a red 4 in my hand. I cannot claim the flag based on this information. (Once I play the red 4 I can claim the flag however.)

OK, here is the situation. Three stones left. I lead four stones to two but my opponent will be able prove on his next turn that he has a breakthrough. My opponent draws the last troop card, so there are no more in the deck. I have 4-4-4 against his 5-5. Two 5's showing. I have the other two in my hand. I cannot prove implicitly that I have that stone by playing the first five, however I can prove he won't get it because the troop deck is empty. After all, the deck being empty is a card on the table.

My take, I cannot claim the stone until I play the other five, even though the troop deck is empty. Am I correct.

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Brad Weage
United States
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I scanned the rules into my computer some time ago. So conveniently I have them with me. The relevant sections seems to be as follows:

The claiming player must prove that the opponent will not be able to create a winning formation, regardless of what Troop cards the opponent might play. For this purpose, the player may use the open information from the layout to show that certain cards are no longer available. The player may not use any information from his own hand. Unplayed Tactics cannot prevent a Flag claim.

On your points 1 and 2 - although the wording is different, the way you have resolved each of your described scenarios seems correct.

On your third scenario, the fact that the troop cards have been exhausted would seem to fall under the "open information from the layout" clause. However, I would still agree that you need to play the last "five" to claim the stone. Although the empty draw pile may let him know that you have both and that he now has no chance to draw the card he needs - you can't prove that he doesn't have a "five" in his hand until you actually play the last one. If he had no troop cards left in his hand - then you could make the case that he does not have the card he needs and has no chance to obtain it - but that would seem to be using information from beyond "the layout" so I wouldn't allow that as a valid proof claim. (Although most people seem to handle the card mix in each hand as open information, I'm unaware of any ruling that indicates that this information is considered to be "open information from the layout" as needed for claims.)
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Jeff Dawson
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Thanks Brad. Do you think you could download the rules into a file?
 
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