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Subject: Party Turn Order rss

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Stephen Preischel
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We're getting ready for our first game tonight and I want to be sure I'm understanding the Party turn order. The player with the most red CHIPS chooses first. The number of STARS on the red chips make no difference. Is that correct? Thanks.
 
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Mark Taraba
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Yeah, that's correct. You don't count the "quality" of the stars. And remember that when you replace one star with another, you put the new token on top of the old one. (at least in the original you did) So we count those in parties, too. You still have them under contract as an understudy and they can help you at parties.
 
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Matthew M
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Knizia's intention (referenced in another post) is that only the showing chips on your sheet count - so actors that are covered over do not contribute to your party ranking. You may as well remove covered over chips from the game - it's simply easier to just cover them.

-MMM
 
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Randy Cox
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taraba wrote:
Yeah, that's correct. You don't count the "quality" of the stars. And remember that when you replace one star with another, you put the new token on top of the old one. (at least in the original you did) So we count those in parties, too. You still have them under contract as an understudy and they can help you at parties.

I agree with this interpretation. Heresay of what Knizia intended be damned. Publishers often change rules to make the game, in their eyes, better. Maybe the publisher altered Knizia's rule intentionally. After all, it does make more sense to count the covered actors for parties. You paid for that actor. They go to the party and gladhand for you. They count.

Until the publisher (not a friend of a friend of the designer) alters the rules, I go with them as written. And as written, the covered actors still count for party turn order.
 
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Stephen Preischel
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The covering of stars and/or co-stars didn't come up in our game but I can see both sides of the discussion. I'm not sure how we'll handle it. I'll have to ask the other people I tend to play with and we can make a group decision. Thanks for the input.
 
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Justin
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when replacing a tile, you're instructed to stack it. after winning a tile that you don't want to place, you're instructed to remove it from the game.

clearly the rules aren't afraid of telling you to remove things from the game, so what other reason is there for stacking other than retaining party counts?
 
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Brad Keck
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astroglide wrote:
when replacing a tile, you're instructed to stack it. after winning a tile that you don't want to place, you're instructed to remove it from the game.

clearly the rules aren't afraid of telling you to remove things from the game, so what other reason is there for stacking other than retaining party counts?

Well, this argument certainly doesn't hold water. It instructs you to stack any other kind of tile that you replace, yet very specifically says that covered tiles count for nothing.

To claim that the rules say that covered up actors count towards parties is a lie. If anything, you could say that the rules are ambiguous on this point. I still contend that the other rules imply that they should not count.
 
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Randy Cox
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TheKeck wrote:
astroglide wrote:
when replacing a tile, you're instructed to stack it. after winning a tile that you don't want to place, you're instructed to remove it from the game.

clearly the rules aren't afraid of telling you to remove things from the game, so what other reason is there for stacking other than retaining party counts?

Well, this argument certainly doesn't hold water. It instructs you to stack any other kind of tile that you replace, yet very specifically says that covered tiles count for nothing.

No. It states that they don't count when tallying the value of a movie. It does not ever say "covered stars count for nothing" or anything along those lines.

Quote:
To claim that the rules say that covered up actors count towards parties is a lie. If anything, you could say that the rules are ambiguous on this point. I still contend that the other rules imply that they should not count.

The rules (from Hollywood Blockbuster) do not make it ambiguous to me. They say to count up the number of stars you have on your screenplays.
 
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Brad Keck
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Randy Cox wrote:
TheKeck wrote:
astroglide wrote:
when replacing a tile, you're instructed to stack it. after winning a tile that you don't want to place, you're instructed to remove it from the game.

clearly the rules aren't afraid of telling you to remove things from the game, so what other reason is there for stacking other than retaining party counts?

Well, this argument certainly doesn't hold water. It instructs you to stack any other kind of tile that you replace, yet very specifically says that covered tiles count for nothing.

No. It states that they don't count when tallying the value of a movie. It does not ever say "covered stars count for nothing" or anything along those lines.


Here are the actual quotes from the rules as I put in another thread; everyone interpret them as they will:

"Only the top-most production chip contributes to the value of a film."

"If more than one production chip has been placed onto a position, only the top-most one is counted."
 
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Justin
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TheKeck wrote:
Well, this argument certainly doesn't hold water.


you didn't address the point of my argument.
 
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Jeff Glazier
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I think I'm going with the interpretation that only the top-most chip counts when determining party order. This would make it a strategic choice to put actors into the free spaces, rather than other chips which may be of higher value.
 
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Brad Keck
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astroglide wrote:
TheKeck wrote:
Well, this argument certainly doesn't hold water.


you didn't address the point of my argument.

I'm sorry, what was your point? It seemed to me like your point was that the rules would instruct you to remove actors from the game rather than stack on top of them if they were not meant to be counted.
 
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Justin
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TheKeck wrote:
It seemed to me like your point was that the rules would instruct you to remove actors from the game rather than stack on top of them if they were not meant to be counted.


that's correct. your counter was to state the rules regarding point calculations, but parties don't have anything to do with that.

i sent an email to uberplay and requested that the question be passed along to reiner. i'll report back with the response.
 
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Brad Keck
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astroglide wrote:
TheKeck wrote:
It seemed to me like your point was that the rules would instruct you to remove actors from the game rather than stack on top of them if they were not meant to be counted.


that's correct. your counter was to state the rules regarding point calculations, but parties don't have anything to do with that.

i sent an email to uberplay and requested that the question be passed along to reiner. i'll report back with the response.

My counter was that the rules tell you to stack rather than throw out tiles you replace. According to your supposition, they should have told the player to throw those tiles out. The fact that they did not say this effectively refutes your statement.
 
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Randy Cox
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TheKeck wrote:
Here are the actual quotes from the rules as I put in another thread; everyone interpret them as they will:

"Only the top-most production chip contributes to the value of a film."

"If more than one production chip has been placed onto a position, only the top-most one is counted."

Well, let's quote all the essential passages, rather than just those that have to do with movie values...

Under Placing Production Chips

"Production chips may be positioned onto corresponding occupied positions as long as the film is not yet complete. Only the top-most production chip contributes to the value of the film."

"If a player prefers not to position a production chip, he returns it to the game box."

Under Completed Films...

"When a film is completed, total all the visible stars on the screenplay and its allocated production chips. If more than one production chip has been placed onto a position, only the top-most one is counted."

And, under Resolving Party Locations...

"The order in which the players choose is determined by the total number of their red actor and guest star chips on all of their screenplays (completed and uncompleted.) The player with the most chooses first."

It's pretty clear to me that it says all red actors and guest stars. That may or may not be what the game developer intended (because, after all, the developer works on it after the designer hands it off to the production company), but that's what it says.

astroglide wrote:
i sent an email to uberplay and requested that the question be passed along to reiner. i'll report back with the response.

I'm even more interested in what Uberplay considers to be the proper rule. It's their game, after all.
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Matthew M
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Randy Cox wrote:

astroglide wrote:
i sent an email to uberplay and requested that the question be passed along to reiner. i'll report back with the response.

I'm even more interested in what Uberplay considers to be the proper rule. It's their game, after all.


I think I'd prefer the director's cut, personally.

-MMM
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Mark Tyler
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I posted this link in the other thread but apparently it needs to be reposted here as well:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/36201

Chris Lawson wrote:
Reiner's intent was that you only count the tiles showing. If you cover
a tile with another then it is effectively out of the game. So when you
come to resolve Parties, it's only the tiles on top with red borders
that matter (so that includes Errol, Rita *and* Reiner as well).

Looking at the English translation I received from Reiner, I guess it
doesn't make it clear (I suspect) because they didn't think it would be
an issue ^_^


Tiles covered don't count for any reason (so no extra points when you
total up the worth of your movie)


Well, despite Lawson's post on rec.board.games more than five years ago, it still seems to be an issue. We have ample evidence that two people can read the same set of rules and come away with two different interpretations. Obviously people can play the game just fine using either interpretation, but for those seeking to play by the "intended" rule, I believe Lawson's words are the best source we have until Reiner responds.

Some might call Lawson a friend of a friend of the designer and claim his words are just heresay. But given the choice of blindly accepting the words of some random party gamer, or the words of someone whose name appears repeatedly in Knizia's rulebooks, I will opt for the latter.
 
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Jeff Hobbs
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m_r_tyler wrote:
I posted this link in the other thread but apparently it needs to be reposted here as well:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/36201

Chris Lawson wrote:
Reiner's intent was that you only count the tiles showing. If you cover
a tile with another then it is effectively out of the game. So when you
come to resolve Parties, it's only the tiles on top with red borders
that matter (so that includes Errol, Rita *and* Reiner as well).

Looking at the English translation I received from Reiner, I guess it
doesn't make it clear (I suspect) because they didn't think it would be
an issue ^_^


Tiles covered don't count for any reason (so no extra points when you
total up the worth of your movie)


Well, despite Lawson's post on rec.board.games more than five years ago, it still seems to be an issue. We have ample evidence that two people can read the same set of rules and come away with two different interpretations. Obviously people can play the game just fine using either interpretation, but for those seeking to play by the "intended" rule, I believe Lawson's words are the best source we have until Reiner responds.

Some might call Lawson a friend of a friend of the designer and claim his words are just heresay. But given the choice of blindly accepting the words of some random party gamer, or the words of someone whose name appears repeatedly in Knizia's rulebooks, I will opt for the latter.


What! You think a person who knows Reiner would be able to tell you what he meant by the rules, over a bunch of people here on the geek?
Personally I think it makes perfect sense that a person who you replaced on a screenplay would not show up at a party to give you more clout.
 
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Paul Sauberer
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jchobbs wrote:

Personally I think it makes perfect sense that a person who you replaced on a screenplay would not show up at a party to give you more clout.


Exactly. Thematically, if they count for anything they should be factored in negatively. Using Randy's example, I doubt if Lindsay Lohan would go to a party praising a producer who had just canned her. She would be badmouthing the person.

Also, I doubt if she would still be "under contract." Very few times, if ever, do producers still keep the star under contract if they are booted from a movie. Either they are bounced for breaching the contract and not paid any more (or get sued for damaging the film) or they are paid off in a settlement.
 
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Randy Cox
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Psauberer wrote:
jchobbs wrote:

Personally I think it makes perfect sense that a person who you replaced on a screenplay would not show up at a party to give you more clout.


Exactly. Thematically, if they count for anything they should be factored in negatively. Using Randy's example, I doubt if Lindsay Lohan would go to a party praising a producer who had just canned her. She would be badmouthing the person.

Also, I doubt if she would still be "under contract." Very few times, if ever, do producers still keep the star under contract if they are booted from a movie. Either they are bounced for breaching the contract and not paid any more (or get sued for damaging the film) or they are paid off in a settlement.

This is true for modern Hollywood, but for the original game, based on the heyday of the Hollywood dream factory, those actors were bought and paid for. They were the property servents "employees" of the studio and they damn well would show up to the parties and glad hand for fear of "never working in this town again."

If Henry Fonda finished up his fifth picture of the year ahead of schedule, sure they'd send him over to take the place of Buddy Ebsen's would-be starring pic. But Ebsen would still be a company man, because if not, he won't get any work. He's under contract and can't go outside the studio, but won't get paid if he doesn't work.
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Justin
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Octavian wrote:
I think I'd prefer the director's cut, personally.


me too. i sent an email to uberplay and jeremy young responded quickly, but it's not clear whether or not the answer came from knizia:

The tiles that are covered by tiles actually do not count towards the totals! It's only what is on top (what is showing) that counts.

that's good enough for me, but i did politely ask about the source. i'll follow up if/when i receive a response to that.
 
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Justin
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follow-up from jeremy young:

Knizia just said it's ONLY the top tiles!

easy enough, that settles it.
 
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