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Carthage: The First Punic War» Forums » General

Subject: Battles rss

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William Payne
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I thinking about buying this. Was wondring how the battles differ from Pax Romana? What are the modifiers?


Thanx in advance
Billy
 
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Russ Massey
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In Carthage you calculate the basic odds (total Inf and Cav vs total Inf and Cav) which gives the attacker +1 for 3:2, +2 for 2:1 etc.

Each leader is rated from A to E, and a D10 roll decided their tacical rating for that battle (0-5 for an E leader, 4-9 for an A.

Cavalry Superiority gives a bonus, depending on the terrain the battle is fought in and the nationality with the most cavalry, typically up to +3.

Each contingent of at least 5 elite troops in the army gives a +1.

Being Disrupted (or worse) from previous battles gives a modifier.

Terrain modfiies if a river has been crossed to start the engagement.

There is a possible +2 if the defender tried to avoid the battle and failed, +4 for a double envelopment (coordinated attack by 2 different forces) and +5 for an ambush (intercept from adjacent bad terrain).

Romans gain +1 for each vet legion with at least 6 SPs and -1 for each legion in excess of the commanders capacity.

Carthaginian armies are rated from -3 to +3 depending how long they've been with their General, and this modifier is also aspplied.

As you see, there are a lot of modifiers, and the battle table also allows for 'unpredictable results' meaning just about anything is possible. There's a lot more detail than Pax Romana.
 
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William Payne
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So if you split your force and attack from two hexes, you get an automatic +4?

If he can see you in the rough terrain waiting to ambush couldnt he just not move adjacent?

So there are only two types of units? Infantry and Cav?No light infantry, or skirmishers? or auxilla for Romans?
 
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Russ Massey
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Tisander wrote:
1) So if you split your force and attack from two hexes, you get an automatic +4?



(2) If he can see you in the rough terrain waiting to ambush couldnt he just not move adjacent?



(3) So there are only two types of units? Infantry and Cav?No light infantry, or skirmishers? or auxilla for Romans?


1) It's a bit more complicated than that. The phasing player can only achieve a double envelopment if his moving force (X) is successfully intercepted by an enemy force (Y), who in turn is then intercepted by another of the phasing players forces (Z) while X and Y are in the same hex. As the rules say, it's not going to come up very often, but does allow for the recreation of Cannae.

2) Sure. But if your're trying to attack the enemy force rather than just move past it you'll have to move adjacent at some point.

3) There are elephants as well. They don't get counted in the basic battle odds, but can be 'commited' in battle for a roll in a table which can result in losses to either side or modifiers to the battle roll. The table favours the owner of the elephants, but not hugely. Personally I would have like to see the presence of elephants negating enemy cavalry for the purposes of calaculating cav superiority as well - certainly one of their major uses in Successor battles.

Infantry SPs may represent LI or HI. There's no differentiation in game terms. Not too unreasonable given the scale.
 
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William Payne
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Odd that LI and HI are different in Pax then, when the scale is larger. The designer told me many times that Pax is not a tactical game, but if that were completely true, then it would be like risk and there would only be one type of unit and it would be called an army.

Seems to me anyway. Also in Pax elephants do cancel Cav. How could a game that 'zooms in' so to speak, not do the same or better?

Strange.

I havent read about Cannae in a while, but I dont believe the Romans were ambushed by two forces. Just enveloped on the flanks. And stabbed....all day long.

You may be thinking of any of Hannibals earlier battles with Rome, I believe in most of them Hannibal in some way Ambushed the Romans.
Of course that wasnt the first Punic War.

thanx for the comments
Billy
 
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Russ Massey
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You're right about Cannae of course. That was a tactical envelopment and not the operational attack by coordinating forces from different directions that seems to be being simulated here. Off hand I don't remember any Punic battles where that happened, but I've just started Goldsworthy's 'The Fall of Carthage', so that should refresh my 25 year old memories of the period.

I'd forgetten the battle rules for Pax, not having played it since I bought it a few months ago. The elephant table looks identical to that in Carthage.

It does seem strange that the tactical focus in Pax, with it's 25 year turns is virtually the same as the more Simulationist 'Ancient' series. I suspect that there are diminishing returns for going into greater detail, otherwise the battles become mini-games in their own right, ala Conquerers.
 
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William Payne
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I tried to look up Conquerors but got nothing. What is the full name? Sounds like my kind of game if it is both stategic and tactical.
 
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Russ Massey
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It's 'The Conquerers', a 1977 SPI game also designed by Berg. I never owned it myself, but did play a friends copy in the 70s. There were two games - one o the Romans and one on Alexander (I think - it may have been the Successors). Strange that there's no geek entry for the games, but you can look them up on wikipedia I think.
 
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Russ Massey
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It is listed on Geek after all - Game ID = 5023
 
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Mick Weitz
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In regards to Double Envelopment in "The Ancient World," I think they are using the term to denote an entirely different cicumstance than the tactical DE at Cannae. Apples and oranges really. Since Carthage does not potray combat at that level, a potential "real" double envelopment would be reflected in the leader's tactical rating, cavalry supremacy,and perhaps Guile rating (assuming an "unpredictable 9" correctly describes Cannae) and NOT by any particular movement of troops on the map.

For what it's worth, I immensely enjoy Pax, and am very much enjoying Carthage right now as well. That being said, the Punic Wars (particularly the 1st), are an era of extreme interest for me.

Good Gaming~! Mick
 
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