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Subject: When exactly can you play Engineers? rss

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Andrew Bond
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Just played my second game of this (first time 2-player, this time 3-player). Really enjoyed the 3-player.

However, we found the rules to be ambiguous about when Engineers can be played. Can anyone help clarify, please?

Under 'Engineers' on p9 of the English rules, it states:

"Note: A player may only use one engineer bonus in each of the two phases of his player turn and at the start of the scoring

So if a player has (say) Daimler, Horch, and Diesel, could he on his turn:

1. Play one of Daimler's markers on a buyer, as part of his "Take/Conduct and Action" phase

2. Play one of Horch's tokens on a car he puts into market, as part of his "Move a Kraftwagen to Market" phase

3. Play one of Diesel's markers to change his car offer, at the start of scoring - provided he had triggered the end of one of the three game turns

Reagarding #3 above, can a player play one of Diesel's markers at the start of scoring, if that scoring has been triggered by another player? Since the Scoring section of the rulebook is silent on this, we played that you couldn't do so.


Any help clarifying these rules would be much appreciated.
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Matthias Cramer
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The example is almost correct.

Diesel's bonus has to be used during the turn (in your example 1.), not in the scoring.

Action Phase:
- Bugatti
- Porsche
- Daimler
- Otto
- Diesel

Place Car on Market:
- Horch
- Maybach

Scoring:
- Opel
- Benz
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Andrew Bond
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Sleeran wrote:
The example is almost correct.

Diesel's bonus has to be used during the turn (in your example 1.), not in the scoring.

Action Phase:
- Bugatti
- Porsche
- Daimler
- Otto
- Diesel

Place Car on Market:
- Horch
- Maybach

Scoring:
- Opel
- Benz


Matthias - thank you for responding.

We played Benz in Phase 1, not Phase 3 as you have indicated, which gave the other players a chance to target that 5th customer. Using it in Phase 3 makes it much more powerful.

One further question, if you don't mind answering ...

I understand the logic for the following being used in a particular phase:

1. Action Phase: Bugatti, Porsche, Otto
2. Place Car on Market: Horch, Maybach
3. Scoring: Opel

But what is the reasoning for Daimler and Diesel being used in Phase 1 (Actions) and Benz in Phase 3 (Scoring)? All three of these engineers alter the market in some way. What am I missing? Why are they used in different Phases?

Andrew
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Andrew Bond
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geocentrix wrote:
Sleeran wrote:
The example is almost correct.

Diesel's bonus has to be used during the turn (in your example 1.), not in the scoring.

Action Phase:
- Bugatti
- Porsche
- Daimler
- Otto
- Diesel

Place Car on Market:
- Horch
- Maybach

Scoring:
- Opel
- Benz


Matthias - thank you for responding.

We played Benz in Phase 1, not Phase 3 as you have indicated, which gave the other players a chance to target that 5th customer. Using it in Phase 3 makes it much more powerful.

One further question, if you don't mind answering ...

I understand the logic for the following being used in a particular phase:

1. Action Phase: Bugatti, Porsche, Otto
2. Place Car on Market: Horch, Maybach
3. Scoring: Opel

But what is the reasoning for Daimler and Diesel being used in Phase 1 (Actions) and Benz in Phase 3 (Scoring)? All three of these engineers alter the market in some way. What am I missing? Why are they used in different Phases?

Andrew


Maybe I can answer my own question ... Presumably the only way to play Daimler and Diesel on a turn when scoring is not triggered is if they are played in Phase 1 (but why not Phase 2?).

The corrolory to this is that Opel can ONLY be used on your turn if you trigger scoring ... Which makes him very weak.
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Andrew Bond
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I see that Matthias's answer has made it into the newly uploaded FAQ, which is great.

However, it is still not clear how Benz works.

Imagine this situation:

Player A (Adam) has picked up Benz on a previous turn, Player B (Ben) has picked up Opel, and it is player C's (Charles') turn.

Charles takes his turn and triggers scoring.

1) Can Adam now play Benz to bring a 5th customer to the market, given that it is still Charles' turn? (I presume no, otherwise this engineer is very strong.)

2) Will Ben score 3x the value of one of his cars, if it is sold to a Price buyer, given that it is Charles' turn? (I presume yes, otherwise this engineer is very weak.)

If my assumptions are right, these engineers work in an inconsistent fashion. Help!


3) If Charles has obtained both Benz and Opel, could he use them both during scoring? I understand from Matthias's previous post the answer is no.

Or is Charles allowed to play Benz during phase 1 of his turn, so he can still play Opel in Phase 3?


I'd be very grateful for clarification of these points before I play again.
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Matthias Cramer
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Hi Andrew,

1) Benz is used during scoring, so Adam can activate him during that phase to bring in an additional buyer.

2) Yes. The scoring itself is nobodys turn.

3) No, for the reason you stated.

Now you can enjoy your next session :-)
Matthias
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Andrew Bond
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Sleeran wrote:
Hi Andrew,

1) Benz is used during scoring, so Adam can activate him during that phase to bring in an additional buyer.

2) Yes. The scoring itself is nobodys turn.

3) No, for the reason you stated.

Now you can enjoy your next session :-)
Matthias


Thank you, Matthias, for the extra clarification. Much appreciated.
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Adam Tucker
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Sleeran wrote:

Action Phase:
- Bugatti
- Porsche
- Daimler
- Otto
- Diesel



Kraftwagen Rules p.9 wrote:

Ferdinand Porsche: : If the player chooses the Grand Prix action, he advances his car on the race track by one additional space. Note: This is also true for the instant action of a research card and the bonus by Ettore Bugatti. This means that the player advances in this case, with the help of Porsche, one additional space.


So can you get Porsche's bonus space from one of Bugatti's bonus Grand-Prix moves or are you not allowed to use them both during the same action phase?
 
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Casey Nedry
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Yes, you get Porsche's bonus when using Bugatti's bonus.
 
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casey nedry wrote:
Yes, you get Porsche's bonus when using Bugatti's bonus.

But in this case you use 2 different engineer bonuses in the same action phase of your turn, which is not allowed according to the rules: "Note: A player may only use one engineer bonus in each of the two phases of his player turn and at the start of the scoring."

But I guess Porsche must be an exception to this rule because it is specifically written in the rules that: "Ferdinand Porsche: : If the player chooses the Grand Prix action, he advances his car on the race track by one additional space. Note: This is also true for the instant action of a research card and the bonus by Ettore Bugatti."

Am I missing something?

 
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Casey Nedry
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Haven't played in a while but yes, Porsche is an exception to the standard rule.
 
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