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Subject: What is (currently) the 'top tier' of taxing ice? rss

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Brodie
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Since Clot has brought Shapers back in a big way (at least in my area), Lady has been taking a lot of the sting out of Eli 1.0. As an HB player, it feels like a big chunk of my taxing power is sucked away with Lady on the board. Thinking about it more, it feels like Sentries are going that way, too -- between Faerie and Stealth Andi, it's tricky to even get Archer to make a dent in the Runner's credit pool! And D4v1d, of course, thwarts a lot of the big baddies.

Obviously what ice presents a serious tax on the Runner depends on the match-up. It's pretty rare to see D4v1d in Criminal, for example, and Shapers don't often have Switchblade. But, in general, what are the pieces of ice people find to be most effective at taxing the Runner these days? Tollbooth, Shutdown bait though it is? Space ice? Grail?
 
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Tommy Roman
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I tend to include 1-2 copies of Ichi 2.0 in my HB decks.

8 creds to rez is a large investment, but not as large as spending 2 clicks at a time to break 3 subs (which the runner can't complete). 5 strength isn't anything to sneeze at, either, and is even better in Stronger Together decks. Throw an Experiential Data upgrade on that server, too.
 
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Grish Noren
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I don't know; Ichi 2.0 is in the same position as tollbooth, only slightly worse in that its weak to both switchblade and D4v1d. Maybe taxing ice isn't meant to be that taxing anymore?

I've heard people are a big fan of Ashiguru in RP because it eats up a bunch of those lady counters. It's still a shutdown magnet, though; but at 4 strength its in the right spot. For similar reasons Ichi 1.0 is one I like to use atm, though switch blade is a problem for it.

But, anything too expensive and big is a risk at the moment because of the reina decks that are all about getting your credit pool low and keeping it there. I've also heard mention of early game Hive in blue sun being particularly valuable these days because it hits that sweet spot.

I've rarely found grail ice to be taxing without twins/foundry for backup.

I think what is taxing these days depends very much on your matchup. I'd say a moderate amount of high strength codegates with a bunch of junk with multisubs... but your mileage is going to vary.

Most taxes these days are coming from upgrades or odd ice: strongbox, troll, caprice, ash. In general things the runner has to trash have been the best mode of taxing for a little while now. I use ice to gear check and just hope to move faster.

/walotxt
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Andrew Brown
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Galahad with 3 subs taxes Lady a lot, but it dies to Parasite

the rest of Grail ICE taxes me as the corp more than i'd like. maybe i just haven't figured it out yet, or maybe i am just really unlucky as i almost never actually seem to have 2 in my hand to throw down every time the runner hits a grail

i think a lot of my favourite taxing ICE die to parasite though. Enigma, Pop-up Window, Datapike. I haven't tried out Negotiator yet, but i think it could be a decent one.


i really like Architect for taxing ICE to be honest because it won't die to Parasite. it won't end the run, but runners really do NOT want this to keep firing, and it has 2 subs as well. with an ID like EtF or NEH, those subs firing trigger your ability. if they break it, it's a decent tax that stays around. if they ever just run through, that's extra economy for you.
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Robert Quirk
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I think Viper is one of the best taxing pieces of ICE out of HB. It is out of Yog range and D4vid range. If they face check it they will lose a click and etr. Or they have to spend 3 for each sub (2 if they have link). If they are running last click and have link it will cost them 2 to get past and considering you only spent 3 to Rez it, after the second encounter you are ahead.
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BobAloVskI wrote:
I think Viper is one of the best taxing pieces of ICE out of HB. It is out of Yog range and D4vid range. If they face check it they will lose a click and etr. Or they have to spend 3 for each sub (2 if they have link). If they are running last click and have link it will cost them 2 to get past and considering you only spent 3 to Rez it, after the second encounter you are ahead.

I think I actually agree with this; though you've got to be careful to avoid any other 4 strength ice then so that atman doesn't eat your lunch.
 
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Mychal
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Salvage.
 
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Skylar114 wrote:
Salvage.

Needs bootcamp, patch subboost and constalation protocol.
 
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Mychal
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gumOnShoe wrote:
Skylar114 wrote:
Salvage.
Needs bootcamp, patch subboost and constalation protocol.
I figured that went without saying.
 
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Zak Jarvis
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'Checkpoint' is pretty taxing.
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Grish Noren
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Skylar114 wrote:
gumOnShoe wrote:
Skylar114 wrote:
Salvage.
Needs bootcamp, patch subboost and constalation protocol.
I figured that went without saying.

Because We Could

Weyland Consortium: Because We Built It (A Study in Static)

Agenda (8)
3x High-Risk Investment (Order and Chaos)
2x Priority Requisition (Core Set)
3x Project Atlas (What Lies Ahead)

Asset (12)
3x Constellation Protocol (Order and Chaos)
3x Executive Boot Camp (All That Remains)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••
3x The Root (Upstalk)

Operation (5)
2x Celebrity Gift (Opening Moves) ••••• •
3x Commercialization (Cyber Exodus)

Barrier (6)
3x Asteroid Belt (Order and Chaos)
3x Tyrant (A Study in Static)

Code Gate (7)
3x Builder (Order and Chaos)
2x Salvage (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Wormhole (Order and Chaos)

Sentry (11)
2x Errand Boy (The Source)
3x Matrix Analyzer (Core Set) ••••• •
2x Nebula (Order and Chaos)
1x Swarm (Opening Moves)
3x Woodcutter (Cyber Exodus)
15 influence spent (max 15)
21 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Order and Chaos

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.
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Chris Wood
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Clearly it's



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Ichi 1.0 is the ice I like to see the least, followed by Archer. High-strength multiple sub sentries are a pain for Shapers and Anarchs, big fat barriers do the same for crims. I like the zodiac ice, but it's kind of a meta call.
 
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Bradley Galbraith
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I see people saying Grail ice... I made a Blue Sun deck that used Grail and Housekeeping to slow the runners start game to an absolute crawl and get a few scores early. This deck was really solid and I was pretty proud of myself for it's performance... then I played against MaxX Eater, and against a few other decks that featured AI as breakers prominently. I totally ate it, and the games were over after 3 turns.
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PaxCecilia wrote:
I see people saying Grail ice... I made a Blue Sun deck that used Grail and Housekeeping to slow the runners start game to an absolute crawl and get a few scores early. This deck was really solid and I was pretty proud of myself for it's performance... then I played against MaxX Eater, and against a few other decks that featured AI as breakers prominently. I totally ate it, and the games were over after 3 turns.

Eater hates upgrades, though, to an extent. Things that trigger on successful accesses like the jinteki grid that pings you for a damage; or crisium grid, or Will 'o The Wisp. Caprice especially.

But I think its safe to say its a runner's game again. The easy corp days are over, and probably for a while... That said, I think you'll like
Spoiler (click to reveal)
turing which comes out in the next pack. It turns on remote scoring like very little else.


The card I want to play with the most though is valley grid; but haven't had time to really test it. Should hurt keyhole the most... Pairing that with some decent rig hate and you should be able to kick back at the rather oppressive strategy.
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Zeb
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Tollbooth is still great, maybe even more so now that it can be femme-proof and even parasite-proof in Blue Sun.

I think people underestimate Checkpoint; it's a strength 7 code gate with a must-break subroutine. Even with a link runner and a Bad Publicity, it's a 3 credit tax for 4 credits to rez.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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Skylar114 wrote:
Salvage.

Figured you wanted one that taxed the Runner though
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Grish Noren
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No one has mentioned data raven, which to me is the most taxing sentry in the game since it takes a click out of you to get through no matter what you do.
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Michael Redston
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gumOnShoe wrote:
No one has mentioned data raven, which to me is the most taxing sentry in the game since it takes a click out of you to get through no matter what you do.
Except Femme. or tag floating.
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Zeb
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There are usually exceptions, that's how you make distinct cards around the same power level. Card are stronger depending on specific conditions and circumstances.
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Clyde W
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kroen wrote:
gumOnShoe wrote:
No one has mentioned data raven, which to me is the most taxing sentry in the game since it takes a click out of you to get through no matter what you do.
Except Femme. or tag floating.
Or the good old Dorm Computer!
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Steven
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clydeiii wrote:
kroen wrote:
gumOnShoe wrote:
No one has mentioned data raven, which to me is the most taxing sentry in the game since it takes a click out of you to get through no matter what you do.
Except Femme. or tag floating.
Or the good old Dorm Computer!

With the added perk of helping against Enhanced Login Protocol right?
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Erik Twice
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Ichi 1.0 is simply the best, there are no cheap ways to get through it even if you Femme it, reduce its strenght or use tricks.

NEXT Silver is a powerhouse in a slow deck, and makes Eli 1.0 good again because Lady just runs out of counters.

Viper is also incredibly efficient, like Ichi 1.0 there are not that many ways to get past it for cheap. It's a big reason for me to play NBN: Making News, that's for sure.


Archer is still amazing and you can also play it in HB with Domestic Sleepers. Sadly, to benefit from Archer in Weyland you must play Hostile Takeover, whose bad publicity is a pain for slower decks.

Curtain Wall
is just big. It's not a matter of being top tier, it's just being so big that it works. Same goes for Wotan

While Wall of Thorns fits in more decks because of its lower cost, Ashigaru is significantly more taxing and, again, impervious to Femme. Had its influence cost been lower we would have seen it everywhere.

Tsurugi
and Komainu are also very taxing because of their great number of subroutines. Weak to Parasite and expensive for most Jinteki builds, though.

Tollbooth
is still as great as ever, but I try to avoid it as much as I can because it will inevitably get Femmed on an important run.

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Jack Dietz
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Some decks get by on only cheap ICE. I have no idea how. Cheap ICE will slow down the runner, but not stop them, and to score a remote, you need to stop them if you're not playing fast advance. Industrial Genomics taxes the runner by virtue of their ID, so they don't need as big of ICE to slow the runner down. If you fill you deck with expensive ICE, you won't be able to rez... right?

ICE that don't stop the runner tend to be more taxing.

Ichi 1.0: Taxing, but doesn't stop the runner. Best case is E3 for click + 2 credits, second best is Atman w/ 4 counters for 3 credits. Rezzes for 5.

If you go cheaper, it gets better.
Pup: 2/1 (2 to break/1 to rez). Parasite counter.
Wraparound: ?/2. Great vs. some decks. Usually good. Parasite counter.
Ice Wall: 1/1. Parasite counter.
Meru Mati: ?/2. Great on HQ.
Pop-Up: 0/0. You gain 1.

Low-strength ICE is countered by parasite. But it isn't countered by effects that force you to rez or derez (Crescentus, Emergency Shutdown, Forced Activation Orders).

Low-strength code gates are hard-countered by Yog.0. Are they worth including in decks?
 
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Lluluien
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jcdietz03 wrote:
Some decks get by on only cheap ICE. I have no idea how. Cheap ICE will slow down the runner, but not stop them, and to score a remote, you need to stop them if you're not playing fast advance.

These decks get by with cheap ICE because there are some nuances that your statement ignores which might explain why you don't understand how that strategy works:

1) You don't need to stop them every time, and that even applies to times when you're installing agendas in the remote. It's okay for them to steal agendas from there as long as you score 7 points before they do. That seems tautological given that we all that about the rules, but there's a corollary here to something I tell new M:tG players that might make it more clear - your 20 life is a resource that you can spend, and you should. You only have to make the other guy hit 0 before you do; your life total at the end doesn't matter.

2) The ICE by itself doesn't necessarily have to stop them. There are a whole host of mechanisms for dissuading the Runner from accessing a card even if they're capable of doing so: Ash, Caprice, Scorch, Midseasons, Dedicated Response Team, TGTBT, Closed Accounts, Snare, Psychic Field, SEA Source, etc., etc. When boiled down to its core, most of the interaction between Corp and Runner is a resource management puzzle, with the resources being principally clicks, credits, and cards. If some particular ICE suite gives you a sufficient sink for whichever of those Runner resources threatens you the most, then it's doing its job, even if it's cheap and doesn't end the run directly.

3) The amount of drain applies to the Runner via ICE is a function of the cost to deal with the ICE and the number of times the Runner runs it. I think a lot of people never get experience playing a Corp archetype where this makes a difference, so they never really think about it this way. If some deck design forces the Runner to fight off its ICE twice as often, then the ICE only needs to apply half the drain. As a great example, this is why Caprice Nisei and Nisei Mk II are so loathsome together.
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