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Subject: Opening Salvo - which dice is any dice :) rss

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Rich Jones
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So the second player can add 2 dice of any colour to the attack - do the dice have to be at the appropriate colour for the range on the ruler?

Lots of discussion about the wording as you add the dice at the modify dice step not the roll step so this suggests to some people you don't have to have the 'range' and thus can throw blue or black at red die range.
 
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Chris K.
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RichJones wrote:
So the second player can add 2 dice of any colour to the attack - do the dice have to be at the appropriate colour for the range on the ruler?

Lots of discussion about the wording as you add the dice at the modify dice step not the roll step so this suggests to some people you don't have to have the 'range' and thus can throw blue or black at red die range.


The limit on dice colors only applies during the step 2 beforehand when you first form the pool.

Nowhere in the rules is a statement that says that at a certain range only certain dice can be used except for the description of how you first form the pool.

Since there are abilities that allow you to add "dice of colors already present in the pool" an ability that does not state this limitation presumably does not have this limitation.

Hence, I believe you may indeed use ANY color, even those not normally available at this range or to your ship.
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Allen T
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Black dice at long range, woo! Or blue dice, if you are digging for accuracy.
 
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Peter O
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chrisdk wrote:
RichJones wrote:
So the second player can add 2 dice of any colour to the attack - do the dice have to be at the appropriate colour for the range on the ruler?

Lots of discussion about the wording as you add the dice at the modify dice step not the roll step so this suggests to some people you don't have to have the 'range' and thus can throw blue or black at red die range.


The limit on dice colors only applies during the step 2 beforehand when you first form the pool.

Nowhere in the rules is a statement that says that at a certain range only certain dice can be used except for the description of how you first form the pool.

Since there are abilities that allow you to add "dice of colors already present in the pool" an ability that does not state this limitation presumably does not have this limitation.

Hence, I believe you may indeed use ANY color, even those not normally available at this range or to your ship.


I'm not so sure about this. The dominator title gives 2 blue dice. Are you using those at long range? I think you can only add dice that are of the appropriate range. I'll have to go look for the rules segment later.
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Chris K.
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tranenturm wrote:
chrisdk wrote:
RichJones wrote:
So the second player can add 2 dice of any colour to the attack - do the dice have to be at the appropriate colour for the range on the ruler?

Lots of discussion about the wording as you add the dice at the modify dice step not the roll step so this suggests to some people you don't have to have the 'range' and thus can throw blue or black at red die range.


The limit on dice colors only applies during the step 2 beforehand when you first form the pool.

Nowhere in the rules is a statement that says that at a certain range only certain dice can be used except for the description of how you first form the pool.

Since there are abilities that allow you to add "dice of colors already present in the pool" an ability that does not state this limitation presumably does not have this limitation.

Hence, I believe you may indeed use ANY color, even those not normally available at this range or to your ship.


I'm not so sure about this. The dominator title gives 2 blue dice. Are you using those at long range? I think you can only add dice that are of the appropriate range. I'll have to go look for the rules segment later.


Since the dominator title itself is limited to being used at close-medium range that does not really say anything.
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Peter O
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From page 2 in the rules reference under attack:


Roll Attack Dice: Gather attack dice to form the attack pool and roll those dice. Gather only the dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler.
 
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Chris K.
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tranenturm wrote:
From page 2 in the rules reference under attack:


Roll Attack Dice: Gather attack dice to form the attack pool and roll those dice. Gather only the dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler.


Yes. That is an instruction how to resolve step 2 of the attack procedure.

What makes you believe that this sentence also limits what can be done in other areas of the rules or later steps in the procedure?
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Justin Hare
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chrisdk wrote:
tranenturm wrote:
From page 2 in the rules reference under attack:


Roll Attack Dice: Gather attack dice to form the attack pool and roll those dice. Gather only the dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler.


Yes. That is an instruction how to resolve step 2 of the attack procedure.

What makes you believe that this sentence also limits what can be done in other areas of the rules or later steps in the procedure?


For this argument, that rule is the relevant one. The additional dice from opening salvo would be added to the attack pool, which is covered by that sentence. They aren't part of the modify dice step.

If they were, you have a case. But they aren't a card effect or a CF command and the only reasonable place to add them is step 2
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Chris Montgomery
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What is the specific language from Opening Salvo?

EDIT: Found it:

Quote:
Card Text --

Setup: After deploying fleets, assign 1 objective token to each ship.

Special Rule: The first time a ship performs an attack against another ship, discard the attacker's objective token. If the attacker belongs to the first player, he adds 2 red dice to the attack pool. If the attacker belongs to the second player, he adds 2 dice, each of any color, to the attack pool.

End of Game: each player increases his final score by half the fleet point cost of each enemy ship in the play area that has at least 1 damage card, rounded up.


This says that the dice are added to the "attack pool" and so it should be part of the "Gather attack dice to form the attack pool" segment, it seems to me, and thus would be limited to a die color at the range specified.

As a counter-argument to that, though - The Golden Rule says cards trump the rules, and the card says "any" dice. If that's the case, though it should have just said "black" dice, since no one will choose a different color.

This will probably need to be FAQ'd by FFG. In the meantime - because it sounds so ludicrous, I will be limiting the die choice to the attack range available.
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Peter O
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Opening Salvo

Setup: After deploying fleets, assign 1 objective token to each ship.

Special Rule: The first time a ship performs an attack against another ship, discard the attacker's objective token. If the attacker belongs to the first player, he adds 2 red dice to the attack pool. If the attacker belongs to the second player, he adds 2 dice, each of any color, to the attack pool.

End of Game:
Each player increases his final score by half the fleet point cost of each enemy ship in the play area that has at least 1 damage card, rounded up.

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wonderpug wonderpug
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cmontgo2 wrote:
What is the specific language from Opening Salvo?

EDIT: Found it:

Quote:
Card Text --

Setup: After deploying fleets, assign 1 objective token to each ship.

Special Rule: The first time a ship performs an attack against another ship, discard the attacker's objective token. If the attacker belongs to the first player, he adds 2 red dice to the attack pool. If the attacker belongs to the second player, he adds 2 dice, each of any color, to the attack pool.

End of Game: each player increases his final score by half the fleet point cost of each enemy ship in the play area that has at least 1 damage card, rounded up.


This says that the dice are added to the "attack pool" and so it should be part of the "Gather attack dice to form the attack pool" segment, it seems to me, and thus would be limited to a die color at the range specified.

As a counter-argument to that, though - The Golden Rule says cards trump the rules, and the card says "any" dice. If that's the case, though it should have just said "black" dice, since no one will choose a different color.

This will probably need to be FAQ'd by FFG. In the meantime - because it sounds so ludicrous, I will be limiting the die choice to the attack range available.


You can't add dice to an attack pool if the pool doesn't exist. You establish the attack pool by doing the initial attack dice roll, which is the roll limited by the range ruler in the rules.

Since other cards say things like "add dice of a color already in the pool" or "add blue only at close-medium range", I would say "add dice of any color" probably means you add dice of any color.
 
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Henrik Johansson
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cmontgo2 wrote:

This says that the dice are added to the "attack pool" and so it should be part of the "Gather attack dice to form the attack pool" segment, it seems to me, and thus would be limited to a die color at the range specified.

This realy doesn't hold up. Look at the concentrate fire command for example. It adds a dice "to the attack pool" and it specificly states it is resolved at the "modify attack" stage of the attack, not "gather attack dice ...".
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Peter O
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The rules are slightly vague on the timing and meaning of "Gather dice" and when range filter is applied. Normally you gather the range appropriate dice as shown on the ship card. Opening salvo gives us an "add dice to the attack pool" step which occurs during "the first time a ship performs an attack against another ship."

The first section of the attack rules on page 2, start with:

Quote:
Attack
To perform an attack with a squadron or ship, resolve the following steps:


So we are performing an attack before we get to the gather dice stage, meaning Opening Salvo should trigger its effect and attempt to add dice before we "Gather Dice".

So unless opening salvo intends to add dice directly to the attack pool without those dice going through the "Gather Dice" filter, inappropriate colored dice should be weeded out.

If opening salvo does intend to skip the range filter, then it includes no language to indicate such. The only occurrence of dice being used at greater than normal range that I could find is the Insidious title for the Gladiator which clearly spells out when and where its black dice can be used at medium range.

Furthermore, consider the situation where a ship normally without red dice is at long range and would like to use the opening salvo dice (and only those dice) in an attack. Such an attack is not allowed, as the extra dice from Opening Salvo only appear when an attack is performed. Range is checked BEFORE attack is performed, and if the ship is out of range an attack is not performed, and hence extra dice can not be added.

This matters because no where on the Opening Salvo card is there language EXPLICITLY giving range modifications to the first attack. Just because Opening Salvo gives two red dice doesn't mean you can use only those dice to attack. Likewise, why should Opening Salvo skip the gather dice filter giving two black dice to be used at long range, when no such mention on the card hints that is intended.

The point of the second player choosing any color is not the main effect of opening salvo. The point is to benefit fleets with lots of ships over those with fewer ships. The color choice is a small additional benefit.
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Peter O
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wonderpug wrote:



You can't add dice to an attack pool if the pool doesn't exist. You establish the attack pool by doing the initial attack dice roll, which is the roll limited by the range ruler in the rules.

Since other cards say things like "add dice of a color already in the pool" or "add blue only at close-medium range", I would say "add dice of any color" probably means you add dice of any color.


From the Rules on Attack pool:
Quote:
Attack Pool
During an attack, the attack pool is comprised of all dice being used for that attack. This includes the dice gathered prior to rolling as well as the dice after they are rolled.


"This includes the dice gathered prior to rolling..." Prior to rolling a dice you gather them. I don't see why they shouldn't be subject to the gather dice filter.
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Peter O
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Smuggler wrote:
cmontgo2 wrote:

This says that the dice are added to the "attack pool" and so it should be part of the "Gather attack dice to form the attack pool" segment, it seems to me, and thus would be limited to a die color at the range specified.

This realy doesn't hold up. Look at the concentrate fire command for example. It adds a dice "to the attack pool" and it specificly states it is resolved at the "modify attack" stage of the attack, not "gather attack dice ...".


Concentrate Fire isn't relevant here. Opening Salvo gives us the trigger point which is when the first attack against a ship is performed. It's not an optional ability and there is nothing on the card that allows you to add the dice later in the attack procedure. Once you are performing the attack, the dice are added. Performance of the attack starts before dice are formally "gathered". Opening Salvo says nothing about these dice being immune to the gather dice filter.
 
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Allen T
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cmontgo2 wrote:
If that's the case, though it should have just said "black" dice, since no one will choose a different color.


Well, if you only have black & red dice in your normal attack, you might want to add a blue or two in an effort to get some accuracy results.
 
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Chris K.
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tranenturm wrote:
The rules are slightly vague on the timing and meaning of "Gather dice" and when range filter is applied. Normally you gather the range appropriate dice as shown on the ship card. Opening salvo gives us an "add dice to the attack pool" step which occurs during "the first time a ship performs an attack against another ship."

The first section of the attack rules on page 2, start with:

Quote:
Attack
To perform an attack with a squadron or ship, resolve the following steps:


So we are performing an attack before we get to the gather dice stage, meaning Opening Salvo should trigger its effect and attempt to add dice before we "Gather Dice".

So unless opening salvo intends to add dice directly to the attack pool without those dice going through the "Gather Dice" filter, inappropriate colored dice should be weeded out.

If opening salvo does intend to skip the range filter, then it includes no language to indicate such. The only occurrence of dice being used at greater than normal range that I could find is the Insidious title for the Gladiator which clearly spells out when and where its black dice can be used at medium range.

Furthermore, consider the situation where a ship normally without red dice is at long range and would like to use the opening salvo dice (and only those dice) in an attack. Such an attack is not allowed, as the extra dice from Opening Salvo only appear when an attack is performed. Range is checked BEFORE attack is performed, and if the ship is out of range an attack is not performed, and hence extra dice can not be added.

This matters because no where on the Opening Salvo card is there language EXPLICITLY giving range modifications to the first attack. Just because Opening Salvo gives two red dice does it mean you can use only those dice to attack. Likewise, why should Opening Salvo skip the gather dice filter giving two black dice to be used at long range, when no such mention on the card hints that is intended.

The point of the second player choosing any color is not the main effect of opening salvo. The point is to benefit fleets with lots of ships over those with fewer ships. The color choice is a small additional benefit.


Opening Salvo is a card effect. Card Effects modify the Attack Pool in Step 3. It is also an "Add" effect. This is a "Modify Dice" Effect.

Reference Rules, p2, Attack Step 3 "Resolve Attack Effects"
"Modify Dice: The attacker can resolve any of its
effects that modify its dice. This includes card effects
and the 'Concentrate Fire' command."

Reference Rules, p7, "Modifying Dice"
"Add: When a die is added, roll an unused die of the
appropriate color into the attack pool."
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wonderpug wonderpug
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I guess the crux is whether one thinks the objective card adds the dice on Attack Step 2: Roll Attack Dice, which has a limitation on range, or Attack Step 3 Resolve Attack Effects - Modify Dice, which has no such limit.

Modify Dice says "The attacker can resolve any of its
effects that modify its dice. This includes card effects...

I would think the objective card effect counts as a card effect that modifies dice.
 
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Allen T
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chrisdk wrote:
tranenturm wrote:
The rules are slightly vague on the timing and meaning of "Gather dice" and when range filter is applied. Normally you gather the range appropriate dice as shown on the ship card. Opening salvo gives us an "add dice to the attack pool" step which occurs during "the first time a ship performs an attack against another ship."

The first section of the attack rules on page 2, start with:

Quote:
Attack
To perform an attack with a squadron or ship, resolve the following steps:


So we are performing an attack before we get to the gather dice stage, meaning Opening Salvo should trigger its effect and attempt to add dice before we "Gather Dice".

So unless opening salvo intends to add dice directly to the attack pool without those dice going through the "Gather Dice" filter, inappropriate colored dice should be weeded out.

If opening salvo does intend to skip the range filter, then it includes no language to indicate such. The only occurrence of dice being used at greater than normal range that I could find is the Insidious title for the Gladiator which clearly spells out when and where its black dice can be used at medium range.

Furthermore, consider the situation where a ship normally without red dice is at long range and would like to use the opening salvo dice (and only those dice) in an attack. Such an attack is not allowed, as the extra dice from Opening Salvo only appear when an attack is performed. Range is checked BEFORE attack is performed, and if the ship is out of range an attack is not performed, and hence extra dice can not be added.

This matters because no where on the Opening Salvo card is there language EXPLICITLY giving range modifications to the first attack. Just because Opening Salvo gives two red dice does it mean you can use only those dice to attack. Likewise, why should Opening Salvo skip the gather dice filter giving two black dice to be used at long range, when no such mention on the card hints that is intended.

The point of the second player choosing any color is not the main effect of opening salvo. The point is to benefit fleets with lots of ships over those with fewer ships. The color choice is a small additional benefit.


Opening Salvo is a card effect. Card Effects modify the Attack Pool in Step 3. It is also an "Add" effect. This is a "Modify Dice" Effect.

Reference Rules, p2, Attack Step 3 "Resolve Attack Effects"
"Modify Dice: The attacker can resolve any of its
effects that modify its dice. This includes card effects
and the 'Concentrate Fire' command."

Reference Rules, p7, "Modifying Dice"
"Add: When a die is added, roll an unused die of the
appropriate color into the attack pool."


Does that mean Opening Salvo dice are added after rolling the initial dice pool, like Concentrate Fire? Granted I haven't played Opening Salvo, but we started playing Concentrate Fire wrong too. It's a minor, but important distinction.
 
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Chris Montgomery
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Yes, I found this later, Chris. Came back to post exactly what you had - but you had already done so. Based on that, I agree with your interpretation of the RAW (any dice of any color may be chosen regardless of range), but they had enough space on the card to make this clear without having to read five different parts of the rules book. This is a very counter-intuitive special exception.

I also don't like it. Making special exceptions to the die that are color-coded for range is a recipe for confusion, argument, and discord during games. If you going to do that, make the card text absolutely clear that you want it that way.

It doesn't seem to pass the smell test, either: I'll be posting to FFG to see if I can get an official ruling on this.

Edit: Someone already did. For now, I have to agree with Chris - and despite my gut-reaction disagreement with the RAW I will play it that way.
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Chris K.
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monkeykins wrote:
chrisdk wrote:
tranenturm wrote:
The rules are slightly vague on the timing and meaning of "Gather dice" and when range filter is applied. Normally you gather the range appropriate dice as shown on the ship card. Opening salvo gives us an "add dice to the attack pool" step which occurs during "the first time a ship performs an attack against another ship."

The first section of the attack rules on page 2, start with:

Quote:
Attack
To perform an attack with a squadron or ship, resolve the following steps:


So we are performing an attack before we get to the gather dice stage, meaning Opening Salvo should trigger its effect and attempt to add dice before we "Gather Dice".

So unless opening salvo intends to add dice directly to the attack pool without those dice going through the "Gather Dice" filter, inappropriate colored dice should be weeded out.

If opening salvo does intend to skip the range filter, then it includes no language to indicate such. The only occurrence of dice being used at greater than normal range that I could find is the Insidious title for the Gladiator which clearly spells out when and where its black dice can be used at medium range.

Furthermore, consider the situation where a ship normally without red dice is at long range and would like to use the opening salvo dice (and only those dice) in an attack. Such an attack is not allowed, as the extra dice from Opening Salvo only appear when an attack is performed. Range is checked BEFORE attack is performed, and if the ship is out of range an attack is not performed, and hence extra dice can not be added.

This matters because no where on the Opening Salvo card is there language EXPLICITLY giving range modifications to the first attack. Just because Opening Salvo gives two red dice does it mean you can use only those dice to attack. Likewise, why should Opening Salvo skip the gather dice filter giving two black dice to be used at long range, when no such mention on the card hints that is intended.

The point of the second player choosing any color is not the main effect of opening salvo. The point is to benefit fleets with lots of ships over those with fewer ships. The color choice is a small additional benefit.


Opening Salvo is a card effect. Card Effects modify the Attack Pool in Step 3. It is also an "Add" effect. This is a "Modify Dice" Effect.

Reference Rules, p2, Attack Step 3 "Resolve Attack Effects"
"Modify Dice: The attacker can resolve any of its
effects that modify its dice. This includes card effects
and the 'Concentrate Fire' command."

Reference Rules, p7, "Modifying Dice"
"Add: When a die is added, roll an unused die of the
appropriate color into the attack pool."


Does that mean Opening Salvo dice are added after rolling the initial dice pool, like Concentrate Fire? Granted I haven't played Opening Salvo, but we started playing Concentrate Fire wrong too. It's a minor, but important distinction.


Any dice that are "added" to the pool become part of the pool.
 
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cmontgo2 wrote:
they had enough space on the card to make this clear without having to read five different parts of the rules book. ...[you should] make the card text absolutely clear that you want it that way.


It certainly would have been easy for FFG to make this crystal clear one way or the other.

If Opening Salvo is meant to be range-restricted, they just needed to add "must be of a color that is already in the attack pool" somewhere.

If Opening Salvo is meant to be read as-is, adding underlined emphasis to "add dice of any color" would have made the intent obvious.
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Justin Hare
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I don't actually see this as a card effect. A card effect is something like H9 turbolasers or the VSD title that allows accuracy to hit conversion. Opening salvo gives each ship a token that is discard when attacking. So to be anal retentive, the extra dice are actually a token effect. I'm also not saying that this should be a primary argument.

Second, the two cards revealed that allow a die to be rolled outside of normal range bands explicitly call that effect out. Rhymer and the one Gladiator title.

Last, the order of operations implied by the objective's wording read as they are added during step 2 and not as a dice modification in step 3. Mainly because the additional dice are not optional. There is no may effect that all other dice modification abilities have. The objective says that you will add two dice.

Anyway, the golden rule in my area is to take the most conservative interpretation. So unless FFG says that any die can be added at any range, we will not allow that.
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Justin Hare
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wonderpug wrote:
cmontgo2 wrote:
they had enough space on the card to make this clear without having to read five different parts of the rules book. ...[you should] make the card text absolutely clear that you want it that way.


It certainly would have been easy for FFG to make this crystal clear one way or the other.

If Opening Salvo is meant to be range-restricted, they just needed to add "must be of a color that is already in the attack pool" somewhere.

If Opening Salvo is meant to be read as-is, adding underlined emphasis to "add dice of any color" would have made the intent obvious.


They can't add the line about already in the attack pool. If the intent is that you can add black dice to a Corvette attack if the first shot is at close range, that line would stop that.
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Church14 wrote:
I don't actually see this as a card effect. A card effect is something like H9 turbolasers or the VSD title that allows accuracy to hit conversion. Opening salvo gives each ship a token that is discard when attacking. So to be anal retentive, the extra dice are actually a token effect. I'm also not saying that this should be a primary argument.

Second, the two cards revealed that allow a die to be rolled outside of normal range bands explicitly call that effect out. Rhymer and the one Gladiator title.

Last, the order of operations implied by the objective's wording read as they are added during step 2 and not as a dice modification in step 3. Mainly because the additional dice are not optional. There is no may effect that all other dice modification abilities have. The objective says that you will add two dice.

Anyway, the golden rule in my area is to take the most conservative interpretation. So unless FFG says that any die can be added at any range, we will not allow that.


But "Add" dice is listed in the rules as a modify dice effect. I feel, that if something is called "modifying dice" it should probably be done when "modifying dice" happens.
 
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