Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
25 Posts

Roll for the Galaxy» Forums » Rules

Subject: The die you use to select your phase is also a worker for that phase rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Pete Goch
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Why is it that so many people trip up on this rule?

Now, I'm not trying to call anyone out or belittle anyone for being confused. So many people get tripped up by this that there must be something going on. However, it's fairly clearly addressed in the rules.

It's right there under Phases:

Quote:
Simultaneously, players do all selected phases in numeric order. To do a phase, use all workers assigned to it, including any worker that selected it.


So why does this give people trouble? I'm guessing that it defies some sort of common sense notion that people have about games. Hmmm...I get to use this die, no matter what face it shows, and put it on the phase selector to pick the phase I want to occur. Since I'm using it to pick a phase and I can disregard the face rolled there must be some sort of penalty. I probably just don't get to use that die.

Something like that?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
A L D A R O N
United States
Cambridge
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
A L D A R O N
badge
----[---->+<]>++.+++++++++++.--------.---.>-[--->+<]>---.---.-.
Avatar
mb
For the same reason, I think, that people almost as often miss that dice are used one at a time: it's in the Phases section. That's where it belongs logically, of course, but (at least from my experience teaching games, it seems) it is common for (at least some) players to have trouble applying the implications of general rules to specific cases.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Guido Gloor
Switzerland
Ostermundigen
Bern
flag msg tools
The statement below is false.
badge
The statement above is correct.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Personally, I was happy when I found out that the rule that the selector counts as worker is commonly missed, because I didn't misplay that. And only half an hour ago, I realized that you can use any die to select a phase, not just dice that show the right face
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gláucio Reis
Brazil
Rio de Janeiro
RJ
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
Hmmm...I get to use this die, no matter what face it shows, and put it on the phase selector to pick the phase I want to occur.

Wait, can you use any die face to select any phase?! That's not how I was taught the game.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul M
United States
Elkhart
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GSReis wrote:
TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
Hmmm...I get to use this die, no matter what face it shows, and put it on the phase selector to pick the phase I want to occur.

Wait, can you use any die face to select any phase?! That's not how I was taught the game.

Yep. Any of the dice you rolled can be the one you use to select a phase.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete Goch
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
When I teach the game I always use an example with just three white home dice showing how you can always be able to use 2 of those 3 dice on any phase you want.

Let's say you'd really like to settle but you've rolled no settle faces. Take one die, regardless of its face, and place it on the Settle phase on your phase selection strip. Take another die and place it to the "dictate" area outside the phase strip. Now you may take the 3rd die, regardless of its face and place it in the Settle column.

You now have two workers that can perform the Settle action. The third will go directly back to your cup once the assignments have been revealed.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete Goch
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Aldaron wrote:
For the same reason, I think, that people almost as often miss that dice are used one at a time: it's in the Phases section.


I always hammer that one home too. It's particularly important in understanding how to use explore and timing your scout actions to maximize the number of tiles you get to look at.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Donny Behne
United States
Fate
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
www.punchboardmedia.com/geaux-gaming/
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I teach it a little differently but it works for me. I teach reassign, which most people get right off the bat. Then I teach that, immediately after rolling, players "reassign" one and only one die to the action strip. It borrows the "any face" and "it's still a worker" from reassign but adds "it also triggers your action for the round". I make sure they know it's distinct from normal reassign and call it an "action reassign".

Works out well for me.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
SoCal
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
Why is it that so many people trip up on this rule?

Now, I'm not trying to call anyone out or belittle anyone for being confused. So many people get tripped up by this that there must be something going on. However, it's fairly clearly addressed in the rules.

It's right there under Phases:

Quote:
Simultaneously, players do all selected phases in numeric order. To do a phase, use all workers assigned to it, including any worker that selected it.


So why does this give people trouble? I'm guessing that it defies some sort of common sense notion that people have about games. Hmmm...I get to use this die, no matter what face it shows, and put it on the phase selector to pick the phase I want to occur. Since I'm using it to pick a phase and I can disregard the face rolled there must be some sort of penalty. I probably just don't get to use that die.

Something like that?


In all fairness, rftG (little 'r' for Roll ) is complex enough that it's difficult to get every rule right. The game has more than 4 pages (of which I've seen people mess up rules to games that were only that long... e.g. Rumis, each layout has a maximum height. Or how in High Society, you can't win if you have the least amount of $$ left). One person who taught me played RftG before (big 'R' for Race ), but never Roll. He did an impressive job teaching it given he learned it on the spot and taught us on the spot as well. It is easy enough that after a round or 3, you get enough of the hang of rules to be able to do things independently enough.

TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
When I teach the game I always use an example with just three white home dice showing how you can always be able to use 2 of those 3 dice on any phase you want.

Let's say you'd really like to settle but you've rolled no settle faces. Take one die, regardless of its face, and place it on the Settle phase on your phase selection strip. Take another die and place it to the "dictate" area outside the phase strip. Now you may take the 3rd die, regardless of its face and place it in the Settle column.

You now have two workers that can perform the Settle action. The third will go directly back to your cup once the assignments have been revealed.
When I taught Race, I went through a visual, sample round so they can see the process of going through the phases, the bonuses getting applied, how to pay for cards, what to look for when using military to place worlds for free, etc. Really does go a long way.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
fake name
msg tools
Can you reassign the worker used to select the phase? It doesn't seem like you should be able to, but there's nothing saying that you can't.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kasper Mundt-Nielsen
Denmark
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Nice, only played 7 games with this being played wrong.. Thanks!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Oliver Graf
Germany
Koblenz
flag msg tools
designer
Help me! I got addicted to MtG again!
badge
Help me! I got addicted to MtG again!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sunsplitter wrote:
Can you reassign the worker used to select the phase? It doesn't seem like you should be able to, but there's nothing saying that you can't.


You use any die to select the phase. So there the question if you can reassign this die does not make much sense, because you use it to select the phase...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Torsten Winkelsträter
Germany
Weinheim
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
sunsplitter wrote:
Can you reassign the worker used to select the phase? It doesn't seem like you should be able to, but there's nothing saying that you can't.


As you have to reassign before revealing, this doesn't seem to make any sense. But if you want to, you probably can...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wei-Hwa Huang
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sunsplitter wrote:
Can you reassign the worker used to select the phase? It doesn't seem like you should be able to, but there's nothing saying that you can't.


I agree that the rules do not directly answer this question. However, since the rules do state that reassigning puts the dice below the phase strip, there would then be no clear way of telling which phase you selected. So I'm just going to go ahead and rule that no, you may not reassign the worker you used to select the phase.

(Allowing this would also cause weird issues with other powers, such as Propaganda Campaign.)
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Austin
Canada
flag msg tools
I just got the game, reading the rules, and I can't make sense of this rule. It's turning me off the game and I haven't even started yet. Why should you be allowed put a die in a phase that doesn't match it? This isn't even explained in the rules. Just says "put any die there. Ignore the face. The die is now good for that action." Why? I can see this being part of a special action from a location but the game does nothing to explain why you get to ignore the symbol you rolled and make it what you want.

If you don't roll the spot you want, you should be out of luck. What's the point of rolling dice if you can just say "well, I didn't like what I got. I'll make it what I want." And as if doing this cheat once wasn't bad enough, the game lets you do it twice with the 'dictate' rule?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rick Teverbaugh
United States
Anderson
Indiana (IN)
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Peepser wrote:
I just got the game, reading the rules, and I can't make sense of this rule. It's turning me off the game and I haven't even started yet. Why should you be allowed put a die in a phase that doesn't match it? This isn't even explained in the rules. Just says "put any die there. Ignore the face. The die is now good for that action." Why? I can see this being part of a special action from a location but the game does nothing to explain why you get to ignore the symbol you rolled and make it what you want.

If you don't roll the spot you want, you should be out of luck. What's the point of rolling dice if you can just say "well, I didn't like what I got. I'll make it what I want." And as if doing this cheat once wasn't bad enough, the game lets you do it twice with the 'dictate' rule?


It is to make the game less luck based without removing all of the chance from it. It is what attracted me to the game. You can always do what you most want to do. How strongly you can do it is controlled by what you rolled.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Lehmann
United States
Palo Alto
California
flag msg tools
designer
mbmb
Peepser wrote:
Why should you be allowed put a die in a phase that doesn't match it?

There's both a "story" rationale and a "play" reason for this rule.

From a story point of view, each player represents the galactic government of their empire, while the dice represent the empire's populace. The populace may or may not do what the government would like them to do -- this is represented by rolling your dice. However, the government has some limited control over their populace. For example, it can provide incentives to encourage its populace to produce more or to consume more, just as real-world governments can do so via tax policy and subsidies. This is represented by being able to use any die you want to choose a phase and ensure that phase happens. This player decision represents your government's action for the round.

The dictate power comes at a cost -- you may delay using some resources (the die that goes back into the cup until next round) in order to exert further control over another part of your populace. Think of this as drafting workers or employing people in public works programs; a more costly way that governments sometimes use to get their populace to do what they want them to do.

Wei-Hwa discusses this idea in the Roll for the Galaxy designer preview that was posted last year on BGG.

The play reason is to give players some control over their fates; so they're not at the complete mercy of what they roll, while avoiding rerolls. Why do you get to reroll your dice three times in Roll through the Ages, for example? Avoiding rerolls allows for simultaneous play and avoids the potential slowdown involved when people have to decide whether or not to reroll their dice and, if so, which dice to reroll.

(This issue is also discussed in the Designer Preview.)
16 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Olli Juhala
Finland
Turku
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Peepser wrote:
I just got the game, reading the rules, and I can't make sense of this rule. It's turning me off the game and I haven't even started yet. Why should you be allowed put a die in a phase that doesn't match it? This isn't even explained in the rules. Just says "put any die there. Ignore the face. The die is now good for that action." Why? I can see this being part of a special action from a location but the game does nothing to explain why you get to ignore the symbol you rolled and make it what you want.

If you don't roll the spot you want, you should be out of luck. What's the point of rolling dice if you can just say "well, I didn't like what I got. I'll make it what I want." And as if doing this cheat once wasn't bad enough, the game lets you do it twice with the 'dictate' rule?


Tom explained the reasoning above, but judging from your reaction you may have bought a wrong game for you.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wei-Hwa Huang
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Shader10 wrote:
Peepser wrote:
If you don't roll the spot you want, you should be out of luck. What's the point of rolling dice if you can just say "well, I didn't like what I got. I'll make it what I want." And as if doing this cheat once wasn't bad enough, the game lets you do it twice with the 'dictate' rule?


Tom explained the reasoning above, but judging from your reaction you may have bought a wrong game for you.


There is a somewhat negative review for Roll that I read a while ago that made me realize that some players have an almost sacred view of die-roll results -- that the whole point of having dice in games is to roll them and force players to accept the outcome. The general concept of allowing players to make decisions that negate the results of a die is anathema. "If you're just allowed to ignore the results of a die roll, the game shouldn't be having you roll dice in the first place!" seems to be their belief.

I don't really understand the viewpoint, but I'm willing to respect it and say yes, Roll is not a game such people will enjoy.

These folks might have preferred one of my earliest prototypes, before I had the phase selection die, dictation, and Reassign powers. The game was a lot more boring and slower then, but that could have been due to other reasons.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete Goch
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't really understand it either. I don't know of any games, beyond roll and moves, that don't allow you some sway over the dice results. If a player is given no control or ways to mitigate the randomness of dice results it seems to me the player is no longer actually playing a game. He's simply rolling dice and then stuff happens.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fernando Robert Yu
Philippines
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
onigame wrote:
Shader10 wrote:
Peepser wrote:
If you don't roll the spot you want, you should be out of luck. What's the point of rolling dice if you can just say "well, I didn't like what I got. I'll make it what I want." And as if doing this cheat once wasn't bad enough, the game lets you do it twice with the 'dictate' rule?


Tom explained the reasoning above, but judging from your reaction you may have bought a wrong game for you.


There is a somewhat negative review for Roll that I read a while ago that made me realize that some players have an almost sacred view of die-roll results -- that the whole point of having dice in games is to roll them and force players to accept the outcome. The general concept of allowing players to make decisions that negate the results of a die is anathema. "If you're just allowed to ignore the results of a die roll, the game shouldn't be having you roll dice in the first place!" seems to be their belief.

I don't really understand the viewpoint, but I'm willing to respect it and say yes, Roll is not a game such people will enjoy.

These folks might have preferred one of my earliest prototypes, before I had the phase selection die, dictation, and Reassign powers. The game was a lot more boring and slower then, but that could have been due to other reasons.


The dice management aspect is THE fun aspect of the game. You are trying to achieve what you want DESPITE what you initially rolled. It's just like Kingdom Builder where the single card terrain draw is the backbone where you are trying to do things DESPITE it.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rick Teverbaugh
United States
Anderson
Indiana (IN)
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
freddieyu wrote:
onigame wrote:
Shader10 wrote:
Peepser wrote:
If you don't roll the spot you want, you should be out of luck. What's the point of rolling dice if you can just say "well, I didn't like what I got. I'll make it what I want." And as if doing this cheat once wasn't bad enough, the game lets you do it twice with the 'dictate' rule?


Tom explained the reasoning above, but judging from your reaction you may have bought a wrong game for you.


There is a somewhat negative review for Roll that I read a while ago that made me realize that some players have an almost sacred view of die-roll results -- that the whole point of having dice in games is to roll them and force players to accept the outcome. The general concept of allowing players to make decisions that negate the results of a die is anathema. "If you're just allowed to ignore the results of a die roll, the game shouldn't be having you roll dice in the first place!" seems to be their belief.

I don't really understand the viewpoint, but I'm willing to respect it and say yes, Roll is not a game such people will enjoy.

These folks might have preferred one of my earliest prototypes, before I had the phase selection die, dictation, and Reassign powers. The game was a lot more boring and slower then, but that could have been due to other reasons.


The dice management aspect is THE fun aspect of the game. You are trying to achieve what you want DESPITE what you initially rolled. It's just like Kingdom Builder where the single card terrain draw is the backbone where you are trying to do things DESPITE it.


Exactly! That's what some people miss about the beauty of Kingdom Builder.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wei-Hwa Huang
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
I don't know of any games, beyond roll and moves, that don't allow you some sway over the dice results. If a player is given no control or ways to mitigate the randomness of dice results it seems to me the player is no longer actually playing a game. He's simply rolling dice and then stuff happens.


There are plenty of non-"roll and move"games that don't allow you any sway over the dice results. For example, the top-rated game on this site doesn't let you modify dice results.

But it still lets you see the results after deciding on your future turns, so you are allowed to react to the dice results.

It could be a psychological thing. I wonder how it would have been received if the die rolling in Roll for the Galaxy was moved to the last step in the round (after Manage Empire). You end each round by rolling all your dice. Then you start the next round by collecting chits based on the dice faces you rolled, and then moving the chits around behind the screen for the Select phase. Would these "dice-randomness snobs" find the dice-rolling more acceptable? I dunno.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tony Go
United States
New York
NY
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
If you're having hull problems I feel bad for you son, I've got 99 problems but a breach ain't one.
badge
TauLeaderGames.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My alternative phase strip has helped me in this area



When I teach the game I make it clear that the very first step after you roll the dice is to place them on the those tracks. Then you may select any one of them and use it to pick the phase you want. Then any phase that is activated will activate every worker in the column.

It's such a small change, but I think the way the dice just float there in the regular version made your workers seem separate. The arrows on the track signal to the player that every lined up worker will "move" onto the icon and activate.

5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruno Wolff
msg tools
onigame wrote:
So I'm just going to go ahead and rule that no, you may not reassign the worker you used to select the phase.


This would be good to add to the rules in the future, as there is a corner case where one might want to do this. If you roll two dice and neither comes up in the column you really want to have both in and you have the reassign power that lets you move two dice in the same column to another column, then you might want to try to use phase selection to get both in the same column and then move both to the same other column. So that noting you can't actually do this is important.

P.S. I think the ruling is a good one, as it simplifies figuring out what phase is selected.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.