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Subject: Dormammu - Too strong? rss

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Sascha Hoppe
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I had to fight against Dormammu this evening. He seems too powerful to me, maybe a wrong german translation?

"Discard one villain card, so that the hero player must discard one ally in play"

This seems too brutal for me, maybe you have an ally with two plot-points on him in play that gets discarded with all the plot-points on him? Just for one lousy villain-card-discard? Maybe you can post the english text on Dormammu please.

Next question: How often can you use this ability? Once per fight? Once per Combat Round? More than once in a combat round?

Third question: Who gets to choose which ally must be discarded? The villain player?

Thanks.
 
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Juhani Nurminen
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schmoove_de wrote:
I had to fight against Dormammu this evening. He seems too powerful to me, maybe a wrong german translation?

"Discard one villain card, so that the hero player must discard one ally in play"

This seems too brutal for me, maybe you have an ally with two plot-points on him in play that gets discarded with all the plot-points on him? Just for one lousy villain-card-discard? Maybe you can post the english text on Dormammu please.

Next question: How often can you use this ability? Once per fight? Once per Combat Round? More than once in a combat round?

Third question: Who gets to choose which ally must be discarded? The villain player?

Thanks.



http://www.asmodee.com/dl/news/marvel-heroes-017.jpg

Dormammu is supposed to be ridiculously strong, he's one of the 3 most powerful villains in the game. He costs a lot, so he's really powerful.

It's hard to say how often you can use it. Supposedly you can't use a power so that it's effect is "doubled" for a single purpose in a given round. Technically that can either mean that you can use it once per round or once per fight. I think it's best to have the designers to answer this question.

I think the player who discards the card gets to choose, that way it's less game-breaking.
 
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Sascha Hoppe
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Tiavals wrote:


I think the player who discards the card gets to choose, that way it's less game-breaking.


Thanks for posting the english card. The text on it pretty much answers my question. I am still very annoyed by this guy, because Fantastic Four do really need their allies, the whole game balance forces you to choose an ally-strategy for them, so it's hard being confronted with Dormammu. Maybe the hero player should then choose a Combat power that means a sure defeat, so Dormammu doesn't get to use his ability often.

I'm still not convinced what happens when you have one or two plot-points on your allies.
 
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Michael Denman
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It looks straightforward to me. Every round of combat, Dormammu can make you get rid of an ally, as long as the other players are willing to discard Villain cards. It doesn't matter if you have tokens on them or not. Considering Dormammu's cost, if you're worried about him showing up and trashing your allies, then don't go after high troubleshooting ratings or bring an ally or two with no extra points on them to use as sacrifices. Your idea about being ready to lay down some massive pain fast is good too. I don't see the problem. The FF have no business tangling with this guy in the first place.
 
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Sascha Hoppe
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Trump wrote:
It looks straightforward to me. Every round of combat, Dormammu can make you get rid of an ally, as long as the other players are willing to discard Villain cards. It doesn't matter if you have tokens on them or not.


That's one thing I noticed: The allies seem to be of use only in the beginning of the game. Later, when the players have a lot of villain-cards to discard, investing plot-points in allies seems rather useless.
Someone will have the "Ignore effects of allies" (don't know the exact name) anyway. So maybe a good strategy is playing all allies you have in the beginning of the game, and try to solve hard missions with originally weak characters. Later, forget about allies and use your strong characters and ally cards only as a discard... Well, maybe
 
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Michael Denman
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schmoove_de wrote:
That's one thing I noticed: The allies seem to be of use only in the beginning of the game. Later, when the players have a lot of villain-cards to discard, investing plot-points in allies seems rather useless. Someone will have the "Ignore effects of allies" (don't know the exact name) anyway. So maybe a good strategy is playing all allies you have in the beginning of the game, and try to solve hard missions with originally weak characters. Later, forget about allies and use your strong characters and ally cards only as a discard... Well, maybe


Hmmm. Early on I can see needing allies more because you don't have team power-ups yet or a wealth of plot points. Later on, it makes sense that they'd be less use. Still, if you don't try to keep using them, then the other players won't be playing the villain cards that block them and they'll just be able to fuel nasty villain powers.
 
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Sascha Hoppe
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Trump wrote:

Hmmm. Early on I can see needing allies more because you don't have team power-ups yet or a wealth of plot points. Later on, it makes sense that they'd be less use. Still, if you don't try to keep using them, then the other players won't be playing the villain cards that block them and they'll just be able to fuel nasty villain powers.


It's a tough decision. Usually, it's better to invest plot-points to get another ready hero into the district rather than to play allies. Using for example Captain America (as addition to the Hulk) discarding ally cards for his special power can be better than playing an ally and moving the Hulk into the district alone. The problem is, that you will need too much actions for moving them into the desired district.

But especially for the Avengers I usually go for the strategy:
Beginning of the game, few cards on opponents hands: Cap. America + some allies, try to get (and keep) as many plot-points as you can.
Later in the game: Forget about allies, move Hulk and Thor as ready heroes in tough districts.

For the Fantastic Four this approach is harder to achieve, because they don't have such a good combination like Thor+Hulk (smart+strong both 3KO)
They all have some weaknesses. I would mostly try to get the Booster card, that allows FF to move as many ready heroes to a district with one action. Until you have that booster card, keep playing the ally strategy, go only for one headline each round, try to make as many story-actions as possible.
But while you are forced to use the ally-strategy, you are very vulnerable to cards, that destroy allies, so you have keep some discipline not to go too fast.

Personally, I think it's much harder to play FF than Avengers e.g.
especially with this Dormammu-guy.

Conclusion: Interesting, strategic gameplay. Superb game.
 
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Roy Stephens
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What the earlier poster said: NO ONE should be F-ing with Dread Dormammu except for Dr. Strange... that said, since it is a fantasy game and unlike the comics, there will be superhero-supervillain mismatches, i think it is completely legit that Dormammu would be WAAAAY powerful...
 
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Daniel Becerra Aller
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hockeyjedi wrote:
What the earlier poster said: NO ONE should be F-ing with Dread Dormammu except for Dr. Strange... that said, since it is a fantasy game and unlike the comics, there will be superhero-supervillain mismatches, i think it is completely legit that Dormammu would be WAAAAY powerful...


But the thing is to get playable villains, not overpowered ones. It's a game, not a comic-book in which the writer sets the plot.
I agree Dormammu is vastly powerful on comic-books, but on the game, is it roughly equal to Ultron or The Enchantress, to name other uber-villains of 5/4 cost?

besides, why is that villains ar not assigned to specific Teams? Much alike Allies, perhaps just by reducing the required Trouble level by one, it would make easier, f ex, to play Venom vs. spider-man, Juggernaut vs X-men or MODOK vs Fantastic Four.

Caedes
 
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Michael Denman
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Caedes wrote:
I agree Dormammu is vastly powerful on comic-books, but on the game, is it roughly equal to Ultron or The Enchantress, to name other uber-villains of 5/4 cost?


Dormammu has got to be more powerful than either of them since he HAS managed to take over an entire realm and rule it. How often are these big villains coming out anyway? You run across a Trouble level of 5 very often?

Caedes wrote:
besides, why is that villains ar not assigned to specific Teams? Much alike Allies, perhaps just by reducing the required Trouble level by one, it would make easier, f ex, to play Venom vs. spider-man, Juggernaut vs X-men or MODOK vs Fantastic Four.


When did MODOK become a FF villain? Anyway...

True, but they have to cut corners somewhere so the game doesn't get too bogged down. Sounds like a pretty easy house rule to implement though. Maybe instead of fiddling with the cost, you always give a certain villain boosting when fighting against a certain hero/team? Or let them automatically get the equivalent of HENCHMAN = 1 if fighting a certain hero/team? I'm hesitant to do any of this though because I LIKE the 'crossover' aspect and would rather not get set in some rut where Spidey is always fighting the same 5 guys.
 
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Daniel Becerra Aller
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Trump wrote:
Caedes wrote:
I agree Dormammu is vastly powerful on comic-books, but on the game, is it roughly equal to Ultron or The Enchantress, to name other uber-villains of 5/4 cost?


Dormammu has got to be more powerful than either of them since he HAS managed to take over an entire realm and rule it. How often are these big villains coming out anyway? You run across a Trouble level of 5 very often?


But the point is if he/it is too powerful ON GAME TERMS!
I mean. I know it's like some infernal no-one-but-strange-can-kick-my-ass demi-god. But, suppose the trouble level allows it, who would play Ultron/Enchantress if you have Dormammu on hand?
Maybe I'm expressing myself in the wrong way....

Don't you think that Dormmamu is a cheap cost villain in the game?

Trump wrote:
Caedes wrote:
besides, why is that villains ar not assigned to specific Teams? Much alike Allies, perhaps just by reducing the required Trouble level by one, it would make easier, f ex, to play Venom vs. spider-man, Juggernaut vs X-men or MODOK vs Fantastic Four.


When did MODOK become a FF villain? Anyway...

My bad. Always been a Mutie geek, sorry :-P

Trump wrote:
True, but they have to cut corners somewhere so the game doesn't get too bogged down. Sounds like a pretty easy house rule to implement though. Maybe instead of fiddling with the cost, you always give a certain villain boosting when fighting against a certain hero/team? Or let them automatically get the equivalent of HENCHMAN = 1 if fighting a certain hero/team? I'm hesitant to do any of this though because I LIKE the 'crossover' aspect and would rather not get set in some rut where Spidey is always fighting the same 5 guys.


I agree with you, I also thought that it was done for simplicity's sake. But I'm not afraid of complicating things a bit.
Besides, if you analyze the villain deck, there's a throng of Spidey-related villains against only 7-8 that can be assigned to F4 or Avengers. It's all right, that's because Spiderman has had some of the most memorable villains of comic-books.

Thank you for your comments
Caedes
 
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Mike Brown
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This game is out now...
 
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Michael Denman
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Caedes wrote:
But the point is if he/it is too powerful ON GAME TERMS!
I mean. But, suppose the trouble level allows it, who would play Ultron/Enchantress if you have Dormammu on hand?


I'm sorry, I mistook your meaning. So what are the powers for Ultron/Enchantress?

Caedes wrote:
Besides, if you analyze the villain deck, there's a throng of Spidey-related villains against only 7-8 that can be assigned to F4 or Avengers. It's all right, that's because Spiderman has had some of the most memorable villains of comic-books.


OK, but if there are a lot of Spidey villains, does it make sense that the Marvel Knights should all be facing them more often? Is Dr Strange really more likely to battle Venom than Thor?

As for Spidey having the most memorable villains... I'm not so sure. I think that's just showing a bias towards a character you've liked a lot. (shrug)

Dorb wrote:
This game is out now...


Shhhhh. It has a strict on-sale date of Dec 4th and we don't want to get anyone in trouble...
 
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Daniel Becerra Aller
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Trump wrote:

I'm sorry, I mistook your meaning. So what are the powers for Ultron/Enchantress?

(all ability/power names are translated from the spanish edition)
Ultron: KO 3
Shocking Discharges: 5/1/3
Adamantium Plate: 2/5/2
Superhuman Intelligence: 2/3/4

Robotic Body: "Discard a villain card, instead of rolling defense-dice, assume you've get a result equal to your defense-rating"

Encahntress: KO 2
Magical Energy Blasts: 4/3/2
Deflecting Spells: 2/5/3
Enchanting Kiss: 1/4/5

Love Spell: "Discard a villain Card: if you had inflicted a KO result using your Enchanting kiss power, your opponent may not choose his red Combat Power in the upcoming Combat sequence".

True, they're both extremely powerful, but still I think a step behind Dormmamu and his ally-killing ability.

Trump wrote:

OK, but if there are a lot of Spidey villains, does it make sense that the Marvel Knights should all be facing them more often? Is Dr Strange really more likely to battle Venom than Thor?

You're right about that. I can only see Dormmamu as an "natural" enemy of Doc Strange, or Bullseye for Daredevil/Elektra.
Spidey has, all for himself: Doc Ock, Venom, Lizard, Electro, Vulture, Rhino, Green Goblin, Kraven, Sand-man....

It's a little bit unbalanced, that's for sure!
Afeter all, that's a side effect of having such a impromptu group as the "marvel knights". but, then again, you can't make a Marvel Boardgame without including Spiderman in it, can you?

Trump wrote:
As for Spidey having the most memorable villains... I'm not so sure. I think that's just showing a bias towards a character you've liked a lot. (shrug)

I'm not a spiderman fan. As I said before, I'm an X-geek myself. Maybe I'd better use the word "iconic" while referring to those villains. If you ask someone to say the name of a Marvel Character, it's Spiderman or Wolverine. If you ask for a Villain, most people will talk about Green Goblin or Doc Ock, I pressume.

 
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Michael Denman
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Caedes wrote:
Robotic Body: "Discard a villain card, instead of rolling defense-dice, assume you've get a result equal to your defense-rating"


Yikes! He's going to be hard to take down.

Caedes wrote:
Enchanting Kiss: 1/4/5

Love Spell: "Discard a villain Card: if you had inflicted a KO result using your Enchanting kiss power, your opponent may not choose his red Combat Power in the upcoming Combat sequence".


I'm not as impressed with this one.

Caedes wrote:
If you ask someone to say the name of a Marvel Character, it's Spiderman or Wolverine. If you ask for a Villain, most people will talk about Green Goblin or Doc Ock, I pressume.


Only because of the movies. The general public really knows very little about comics outside of television and the movies. Some could have named Spiderman before the Raimi movies, but they wouldn't have known a single one of his villains. Even worse with the X-Men. And you'd be hard pressed to find a non-fan who could list all of the members of the Fantastic Four even if they HAD seen the movie. Of course, this game is appealing to comics fans. THEY could name the characters! If I were talking to a non-fan, I'd probably name Spider-Man or the Hulk first just because I think they'd know who I was talking about. If I were talking to a fan, my first instinct would be to list off Avengers or X-Men. If I were asked to list off some villains, it'd really depend a lot on what I had read most recently, but I'd be most likely to shoot for Fantastic Four villains just because I like them best. Spider-Man does have an impressive rogue's gallery though. As far as solo titles go, I can't think of any other Marvel title that's run as long and been as popular as Spidey. That's GOT to be a factor in making his villains memorable.
 
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Daniel Becerra Aller
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Let's go to the original them of the thread: is Dormmamu a villain card too strong?

Trump wrote:
Caedes wrote:
Robotic Body: "Discard a villain card, instead of rolling defense-dice, assume you've get a result equal to your defense-rating"


Yikes! He's going to be hard to take down.

Less that it seems, I'm afraid. The heroes always seem to make huge rolls against him cry

This power is severely nerfed by the attacking-wins-ties rule (which I love, btw). It's only really useful using orange Combat, or to grant success after a poor attack roll.
Of course, It shines when you attach "protection" cards to it.

Trump wrote:

Caedes wrote:
Enchanting Kiss: 1/4/5

Love Spell: "Discard a villain Card: if you had inflicted a KO result using your Enchanting kiss power, your opponent may not choose his red Combat Power in the upcoming Combat sequence".


I'm not as impressed with this one.


I must admit I'd have yet to see her in combat, but I think she could be devastating against not-so-high wits heroes.

Think about it. Choose Enchanting kiss. With 4 defense, it's hard to receive a KO. And with 5 wits, not only you score a ko, but prevent the hapless lad to use his high-attack red Combat!. Repeat again and again and...
BUT... With only a couple of allies (attack and/or wits) she crumbles...


The reason why Dormammu is so ridiculously strong. Not only he can kick the ass of most heroes, it's because he can deprive the other player of his allies cards. Who would not discard three villain cards on each of the combat phases on the first round in order to evaporate any ally a rival player may have? Moreso, remember that ANY villain player can do it himself, so in a 4-player game it's only a card to each villain player!!

in fact, most of the time you don't care much if the headline is solved or not. You just want to get rid of the Vision-Scarlet Witch-Nick Fury combo.
And the target player can do nothing about it....

No other villain has this lasting, crippling effect. All the other cards are just villains, tougher or weaker, but just combat dummies to be beaten. Dormammu is in another, more subtle and sneaky dimension.

Caedes
 
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Sascha Hoppe
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Caedes wrote:
Who would not discard three villain cards on each of the combat phases on the first round in order to evaporate any ally a rival player may have?


I think we are still waiting for an official answer, how often you can use Dormammus power and when!
Before every roll (attack, defense, outwit) is quite hard I think. Did you play it that way?
 
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Michael Denman
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Caedes wrote:
Who would not discard three villain cards on each of the combat phases on the first round in order to evaporate any ally a rival player may have? Moreso, remember that ANY villain player can do it himself, so in a 4-player game it's only a card to each villain player!!


Ummm.... *I* wouldn't discard that many villain cards... unless the situation warranted it. Sure, everyone could pile on and rip into the hapless hero who came across Dormammu, but unless that hero player is the leader, why use up everything just to ruin their day?

schmoove_de wrote:
I think we are still waiting for an official answer, how often you can use Dormammus power and when! Before every roll (attack, defense, outwit) is quite hard I think. Did you play it that way?


Heh? Ummm... I'm not waiting. He can use it once per round of combat and he'd use it before Powers are chosen. The hero player would choose which ally to discard.
 
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Daniel Becerra Aller
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Trump wrote:

Heh? Ummm... I'm not waiting. He can use it once per round of combat and he'd use it before Powers are chosen. The hero player would choose which ally to discard.


That was already answered, for I had the same doubt:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/134915
 
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