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Victory in Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: don't call it a blockade, call it quarantine. (Italian Lybia) rss

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Austin Savatt
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Just got the game and have a lot of questions but this one was near the top of the list.

While neutral does Italy suffer supply attrition in Lybia if the allies occupy all 3 of the adjacent sea zones? Can Italy ignore those boats while neutral and still count the units in Lybia in supply?

Otherwise, a situation came up in our first game where Italy was not yet a part of the axis because of a failed roll, and the UK/French navy had surrounded Lybia almost by accident. The Italian units couldn't attack to clear their supply line and the forces there suffered attrition.

Was this correct?
Is this a flaw in the rules that Italy can't declare war of your own free will when suffering a blockade of her colonies? Should a blocade like this be considered an act of war?

Assuming for a moment these units do suffer attrition. A crafty allied player could Blocade them their first turn. They cant resupply, suffer attrition and one block vanishes. The naval cordon established including a sea zone adjacent to the italian mainland. On the second turn, 8th army attacks into Lybia, and the French colonials attack from the other side, the other french unit then invading part of the boot and Italy surrenders in the 2nd turn of 1939.
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John Griffey
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oztea wrote:
While neutral does Italy suffer supply attrition in Libya if the allies occupy all 3 of the adjacent sea zones?


No.

oztea wrote:

Can Italy ignore those boats while neutral and still count the units in Libya in supply?

Yes.

oztea wrote:

Otherwise, a situation came up in our first game where Italy was not yet a part of the axis because of a failed roll, and the UK/French navy had surrounded Lybia almost by accident. The Italian units couldn't attack to clear their supply line and the forces there suffered attrition.

Was this correct?

No.

oztea wrote:

Is this a flaw in the rules that Italy can't declare war of your own free will when suffering a blockade of her colonies?

No. Such blockade is not allowed against neutral Italy.

oztea wrote:

Should a blockade like this be considered an act of war?

It is simply not allowed. To declare war, the Allies must attack an Italian unit or enter an Italian land area. Then they can blockade. But I think you're right: the Allies should be able to declare war by this kind of blockade too.

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Austin Savatt
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What rules allow italian units to be in supply?
Naval supply can only be traced through friendly or vacant sea zones. Allied units make sea zones not friendly (or maybe Italian neutrality rules dont define if they do or don't)

The big problem is that, even as player 2, the allies have sufficient boats already in the med to establish a cordon, 8th army could just make the attack while the cordon is up. The Italian units then suffer attrition and ho unsupplied in 1939.3 and Lybia is essentially vaporized instantly.

(Again keep in mind I just got my game yesterday so im still learning the rules)
 
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Charles Finch
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I think u can trace thru neutral seas

On turn one put a sub next to Libya so in supply if allies attack?
 
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Austin Savatt
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Rule 8.3
Supply can travel via continuous adjacent friendly or vacant sea zones.

I would argue UK/French ships are not friendly.

Rule 1.6
Sea zones are neutral unless occupied by naval units.

Since they are occupied, the zones are by definition not neutral.
 
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Dan Raspler
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Best way to handle that problem without violating RAW is to *assume* neutral units don't have to trace supply.

Once Columbia addresses the "neutral problem" that's been raised here for the past few weeks, we'll have a sturdier solution.
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John Griffey
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oztea wrote:
What rules allow italian units to be in supply?
Naval supply can only be traced through friendly or vacant sea zones. Allied units make sea zones not friendly (or maybe Italian neutrality rules dont define if they do or don't)

The big problem is that, even as player 2, the allies have sufficient boats already in the med to establish a cordon, 8th army could just make the attack while the cordon is up. The Italian units then suffer attrition and ho unsupplied in 1939.3 and Libya is essentially vaporized instantly.

(Again keep in mind I just got my game yesterday so im still learning the rules)


Italy is not an Axis power at start so the Allies don't interdict Italian supply.

Please note too that the Malta rule (in the Gazeteer) has no effect on Italian builds while Italy is neutral. When Italy is Axis, Italian units in Africa and Asia cost 1 PP extra if Malta is Allied controlled.

Beware that another Allied gambit is to line up an Allied attack on Rome, to knock Italy out of the war immediately.

Italy has a Navy (Regia Marina)and small air force which can punch a hole in an Allied blockade of Libya, or thwart Allied landings. Italy can even reinforce Libya and threaten Egypt with attack. The Allies will be unable to dedicate many Command Points or Production Points to attacking in the Mediterranean. If they do, they risk losing both Paris and London. Usually, France falls by Spring 1940, removing the French threat to Italy and Libya.
 
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Austin Savatt
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I have reread the rules and now see the Malta rule only effects an Italy at war. This presents another problem though. It adds more incentive for the Allies to drag Italy into the war ASAP on their terms. It saves the Axis the diplomacy roll, but starts Italy off on it's heels.
 
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Michael Dworkin
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Even an 'on its heels' weak Italy can be a problem for the UK, IF Germany is pushing a policy of churning (low cost) U-Boats and cruisers in repeated attacks on the Royal Navy, rolling trading Condors, Stuka and Battle Cruiser points for Royal Navy ships and selective use of Bismark/Tirpitz where its unlikely to be permanently eliminated.

Its certainly hard for Axis to do that if they are also trying to build up three killer-stacks for an attack on Russia; but a serious push for London and Cairo looks a strong riposte to an early Allied attack on Italy....as long as Italy survives the start as weak, but not dead.

Note that allies cannot invade Italy on first card of game (1939.3) since they didn't control the invasion path at start of game, and they cannot invade Italy on 1940.1 because it is winter. And the Allied chances of being Player 1 on 1939.4 are very low, given the Command card mix and the fact that Axis win on ties.

With once caveat, it looks like the chances of an early knock out on Italy depend on EVERYthing going right for allies, in situation where the probabilities are agains them in several independent ways.

What's the caveat: well, every time I play another round of ViE, I get surprised by my own new perceptions....and as a solo player, I have to assume others will see even more new things than me.
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Dave Daffin
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MHDworkin wrote:
every time I play another round of ViE, I get surprised by my own new perceptions....and as a solo player, I have to assume others will see even more new things than me.


I appreciate your insights, Michael, and this statement is very encouraging and exciting. I'm looking forward to seeing how the game plays - once I've applied all of the stickers to the blocks!
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Austin Savatt
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This could be remedied easily by an eratta that suspends the Italian surrender rule if they are attacked by the allies first (representing a patriotic defensive war) or if the rule is suspended until 1941 or later.

If a rule exists, players will develop strategies to exploit that rule. And because allied players have so little to do with their CMs in 1939, besides a SM or two, an Italian Slam could at least relegate Italy to a rump state with navy at the bottom of the Med, or at best knock them out of the war before france.
 
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