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Huzzah! Four Battles of the American Civil War Vol. 1» Forums » Rules

Subject: AOT rss

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Ryan King
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what does AOT mean?
 
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Ryan King
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just trying to decipher Stephens depot TEC
chart. MfZ is NA for roads?? My TEC chart has it AOT, map chart is NA
 
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Ryan King
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stephens depot scenario also says units MUST be in command. This is different then normal. So what happens if the leader is killed? It says they must be in command but doesn't off the consequences if they are not.

Sorry for the stream of thought questions, we are actually playing right now.
 
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Ryan King
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The TEC on the map doesn't relate to the regular TEC. The little alphabet notes don't match the chart. It also list streams, but streams are not on the regular charts.
 
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Richard Dengel
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As Other Terrain
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Ryan King
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Yes, thank you. Are there any reasons for the discrepancies mentioned above? I can't figure out if I'm missing something or if it is just 1st printing discrepancies. Specifically, Stephen's Depot Map TEC has (f) listed next to Stream movement, but that (f) doesn't seem to correlate to the (f) on the actual TEC Chart. I'm assuming the (f) is about artillery having restrictions. And using the word stream, when on the actual TEC chart we have ponds, rivers, creeks and runs, but not streams. Seems like maybe terminology was switched during design and this stream got by. We treated it as a run. And again, the Thoroughfare MFZ on the map chart says N/A, where the regular says AOT. There isn't a scenario rule saying it's N/A for this specific battle, we again assumed changes happened during design and these older versions got on the map. This isn't listed ion the errata, so we keep assuming we're missing something (or we're the first to actual play Stephen's Depot!)....

Also, for the next version, I suggest sticking to certain terms. The rule book says a few times, "The rules below will reference terms 'X' and 'Y', these terms are interchangeable". If that is true, it is easier for new players to just have the one term instead of having to learn that two words mean the same thing. I see this still applies to the 2nd version rules, but I hope they can be more streamlined in the future.
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Edwin S
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I've played it!
While Richard's obviously the man to ask, I'll say that I think all the relevant effects of streams are there on the chart (nothing for fire or MFZ, no effect on Infantry and Cavalry move, -1 fire line mod to assault over the stream). I think the (f) is now (g) on the new TEC, i.e. arty must stop after they cross the stream (seems a bit unlikely to happen here anyway).
A thoroughfare is a thoroughfare is a thoroughfare, I think, i.e. all work as roads as defined in the rules, and their only effects are as listed there (i.e. movement bonuses, straggler and fire modifiers etc). No effect on MFZ. Their main importance seems to be to Union command in this scenario (I learned that the hard way). On that note, I don't think "must be in command" means that they have to be in command, just that they're OoC unless they fulfill the (tough) criteria listed, and so can't assault etc.

I agree with your second paragraph. I'd just say this: don't let the errata put you off - it's an interesting game and one which I'm really looking forward to exploring more.

One more question of my own for Stephenson's Depot: how do the elevations affect ZoC? There are 3 levels here, rather than the 2 that the rest of the rules imply. Can a unit see from say 1511 to 1311 (across a hex of the same level and then down a level), or can you only see down a slope if you're on the edge of the elevation?
 
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Richard Dengel
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Hi,

I'm in agreement with Edwin's analysis across the board.

Arty must stop when crossing a stream. Otherwise, there is no effect.

I think Edwin's question about height had more to do with Line of Sight (LoS) than Zones of Control (ZoC). This question came up before from another game. My Honey Springs game uses a map configuration similar to Stephenson's. In hind-sight, the LoS rules need clarification. Verbatim from HS here it is. This applies also to Stephensons. Note that in Stephenson's there are only 3 levels of elevation. The text below indicates 7 (not true in SD), but the same principles apply.

*******************************************************************
3.5 While at first glance line of sight is more problematic than other games in the series, given the limited range of the weaponry it is in fact not difficult to compute. To determine LoS, a straight line is traced between the center of the firing unit’s hex and that of its target. Use any straight-edge to do this (a rubber band or string stretched between the sighting units works best). As you interpret LoS, be liberal. Remember that if artillery is firing at a lower unit and there are no elevations equal to or higher than that artillery, No Line of Sight fire is always possible (7.3 in the Standard rules).

3.5.1. The possible obstructions to a LoS are woods, elevations, and other combat units. In cases where the LoS intersects the hexside between an obstructed and an unobstructed hex, then the LoS is not blocked. LoS may be traced INTO but not THROUGH an obstructed hex. A unit may always see into an adjacent hex subject to its facing.

3.5.2. There are seven elevation levels. Level 0 is the lowest, and level 6 the highest, elevation. Elevations are potential obstructions to the LoS.
a) CASE 1. When units are on the same or different elevations, then any elevation higher than both units will block the LoS between them.
b) CASE 2. When sighting between units on different elevations, then any elevation that is the same as the elevation of the higher unit will obstruct the LoS between the two units if that elevation is closer to the lower unit than the higher one, or is equidistant between the two. When sighting between units on different elevations and all elevations between them are lower than the higher unit, then the terrain is considered to be generally descending. LoS is always possible along generally descending terrain. In cases where the terrain descends, rises and then descends again, the terrain is NOT generally descending.

3.5.3. When sighting between units on the same elevation, the LoS is blocked if it passes through a woods hex. When sighting between units on different elevations, the LoS is blocked if the woods hex is closer to the lower unit, or is equidistant between the two.

3.5.4. Leaders never block LoS, only Combat units are potential obstructions. When sighting between combat units on the same elevation, the LoS is blocked if it passes through a hex occupied by another combat unit, friendly or un-friendly. If the firing unit and target are on different elevations, LoS is only blocked if the combat unit is on the same elevation as the lower unit and it is adjacent to that lower unit.

Hope this helps.
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Richard Dengel
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BTW, I'm compiling version 3.0 of the rules to go with the Wilderness. This will include table changes as recommended by the players (you all). Some additional clarifications will also be included. I'll post as I get them together.
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Ryan King
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OK, so it looks like just some small errata (should go on the errata file list, btw) and just how we were interpreting the rules. I'd really like to see the new rules. After 3 games I think I have a good grasp on the game, including what areas can be improved via clarifications. I'll keep an eye out for them. More than happy to play Iuka or Stephen's Depot with 3.0 rules if you need feedback.
 
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Richard Dengel
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Please post your recommendations. I'm all ears. Thanks!
 
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Edwin S
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Thanks for the answer re. elevations, that's much clearer (and yes, I did mean LOS not ZOC - too many TLAs).

Just some thoughts about the rules and charts, mostly just reminders more than anything else:

One thing which might be nice is some reminder on the fire table that numerical O hits (as opposed to D results) require a morale check, since the various other ways of taking O hits (stragglers, converted D results, a D result on top of an already disrupted unit etc.) don't require one (or at least I don't think they do). That tripped me up a bit at first.

A bit more clarity on morale checks would be appreciated generally: the rules do say that "morale check" and "disorganisation check" are used interchangeably, but it would be clearer if they weren't. If straggler checks are the only time that base (i.e. unmodified) morale is used, it would be useful to indicate that more clearly too: I think it could be better to just say in section 12 that morale checks are taken against modified morale, and put the part about unmodified morale in the section on stragglers, since straggler checks aren't properly morale checks anyway but are resolved on a separate table.

If space allows, a glossary would be useful.
 
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Richard Dengel
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great suggestions, thanks. I'll be working through the fog to provide a more precise nomenclature. Part of the problem is the evolutionary part of the design that tends to retain artifacts from previous iterations. I'll attempt to remedy in 3.0.
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Edwin S
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Can adjusted morale go below 0 e.g. a flipped USA cavalry of 0-1 with 2 O hits on it? i.e. it would be impossible to rally without a leader.
 
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Richard Dengel
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No, it can never be modified below zero. I could have sworn this was in the rules, but can't seem to find it right now. Hmmm...another piece of errata.
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Richard Dengel
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A player wrote me directly requesting clarification of the effects of combat results against units in various states of Organization (Good Order, Disrupted, and Routed):

I'm having a bit of difficulty re: Disruption v. Good Order v. Routed units and the results on the CRT.

My clarifications:

General clarification: The term DISORGANIZATION refers to any unit/stack that is either Routed or Disrupted. GOOD ORDER refers to any stack that is neither Routed nor Disrupted.

Stack in Good Order and suffers a D result: may roll to take an O hit. If it passes it retains good order and takes the hit. If it fails, it suffers the Disrupted.

Stack in Good Order and suffers a 1/2/3 result: takes O hit(s) and rolls for Disorganization. Pass = NE; Fail = Disrupted. If it fails it MAY NOT attempt to take the Disruption; units may only attempt to take a Disruption on D combat result.

Stack is Disrupted and suffers D result: suffers O hit and checks morale. Pass = Remain Disrupted; Fail = Rout

Stack is Disrupted and suffers 1/2/3 result: Org hit(s) and check morale. Pass = Remain Disrupted; Fail = Rout

Stack is Routed and suffers D result: Suffers O hit and auto Rout

Stack is Routed and suffers 1/2/3 result: O hits(s), auto rout, and take an additional O hit.
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Edwin S
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Sorry, yet another one: if a stack is moving through woods, fails a straggler check and decides to stay in its original hex and terminate movement rather than taking the hit, can it then change facing in that original hex?

EDIT: and another clarification: command status is determined at the beginning of each friendly action segment. So if a USA unit was out of command at the beginning of USA Action Segment (g), presumably even if a leader moved into command radius it would still be out of command (and have the morale modifier applied) for segment (i), CSA Small Arms. That makes sense - but in that case it would be great to have some OoC markers in future games in the series if possible.

Thanks for being so patient answering all of these questions!
 
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Richard Dengel
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Answer to question 1, Yes, the stack may still change facing.

Answer to number 2, Yes, you are correct, the unit remains out of command.

RE: Out of Command markers, yes, I agree they are needed. They are included in the Wilderness, volume 2 in the series. I'll post some hear later today
that you can print and mount if you are so inclined.

No worries about the questions. I truly enjoy providing clarity as needed.
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Edwin S
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Any chance of getting those OoC markers?
 
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Richard Dengel
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I can post some markers that you can print and mount yourself if you'd like. If you want something from OSS you'll need to drop Jon a line.
 
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Edwin S
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Yeah, I meant to print and mount, but only if you've got the files to hand! I can always repurpose something from another game, so don't worry about it if it's much work.
 
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