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Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » General

Subject: Scenario Win-Loss statistics from CCVT competitive play rss

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Ahmed Hadzi
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As some of you may know, we have a community of about 70+ players who started about a year and a half ago playing in competitive format over at the CCVT guild page.

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/guild/1742

Starting from this tournament, I thought that it would be a good idea to keep track of Win-Loss information per scenario as we get about 20 plays per round. Players participating in this tournament vary in skill, from rookies to WBC champions, so the results gathered should show a fair representation. We don't impose strict oversight over each game, so it does happen that certain rules or special conditions are missed or interpreted in a wrong way. This is another reason why this type of statistics might be useful as the gaming conditions are closer in match to those of a gaming room, rather than methodical playtesting.

I will keep an image in the first post of this thread, and update it occasionally (after few rounds).

1) It should be noted that we allow bidding for sides in amount between 0-3VPs to offset any perceived differences between the belligerents. In case players bid for different sides, scenario is played as written. When both players bid for the same side, winner gets to play his desired sides with losing player being awarded amount of VPs from the winning bid in his favor, prior to the scenario start. - APPLICABLE TO GAMES IN CCVT#5

2) Starting with CCVT #6, players were allowed to bid up to 15VPs to play either side.

Legend:

Scen# - Scenario number as printed
Name
Map - Map number
Where - Tournament and the round played
#AlBids - Number of player's bids to play Allies in this scenario
AlAvBid - Average VP bid to play Allies
#AxBids - Number of player's bids to play Axis in this scenario
AxAvBid - Average VP bid to play Axis
Al-AX - Allied wins vs Axis wins in this scenario.

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César Moreno
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So it would seem players perceive most of these scenarios to favor the allies (more and higher bids to play allies than axis).

And then the results seem to vaguely confirm this perception.

(No scenario seemed unbalanced to me, btw)
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Chick Lewis
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Useful, and EXTREMELY interesting !

Please continue with this project.
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Ahmed Hadzi
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chicklewis wrote:
Useful, and EXTREMELY interesting !

Please continue with this project.


Yes my plan is to continue with this as we continue our tournaments. There should be about 15-20 scenarios played per year. Those three empty spots are for scenarios which will be played over next 6 weeks.
 
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Ahmed Hadzi
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NoMasOvejas wrote:
So it would seem players perceive most of these scenarios to favor the allies (more and higher bids to play allies than axis).

And then the results seem to vaguely confirm this perception.

(No scenario seemed unbalanced to me, btw)


Interestingly enough, those scenarios that were perceived more imbalanced (as shown by larger spread between Allied and Axis bids) have shown to be very close match ups.

There was a short discussion about scenario 89 which was won by the Brits in 90% of the games, how to make it bit more balanced. Some ideas where, to make Brits Recon in this scenario or to allow Germans to score double points for British elimination. Right now it seems that the only way for Germans to win that one is to make the Brits surrender.
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Bryan Collars
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While anyone can create and use house rules on any scenario, published or not, I would like to point out that some scenarios are crafted with the express intent of having a narrow pathway to victory. In many instances this is to model some historical situation within the framework of the game/scenario or just because we designers are nefarious and like to make people feel miserable. devil
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Ahmed Hadzi
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NinetySixer wrote:
While anyone can create and use house rules on any scenario, published or not, I would like to point out that some scenarios are crafted with the express intent of having a narrow pathway to victory. In many instances this is to model some historical situation within the framework of the game/scenario or just because we designers are nefarious and like to make people feel miserable. devil


I agree with your view Bryan, and I generally like to play all scenarios as published. I know how much time and effort the development team puts into playtesting and refining these scenarios. But from a competitive perspective, if certain scenario turns out to be one sided, it should be slightly refined.

Current threshold of CCVT is that one side has to win at least 25% of the round games in order for the round's results to count. 1 win out of 4 IMHO give decent odds to that weaker side.

Most of the scenarios listed above have even better odds at 60-40 spread. But that one with 90% win ratio for Brits just wasn't fun tournament environment.
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Dan Huffman
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ahmedhadzi wrote:
NinetySixer wrote:
While anyone can create and use house rules on any scenario, published or not, I would like to point out that some scenarios are crafted with the express intent of having a narrow pathway to victory. In many instances this is to model some historical situation within the framework of the game/scenario or just because we designers are nefarious and like to make people feel miserable. devil


I agree with your view Bryan, and I generally like to play all scenarios as published. I know how much time and effort the development team puts into playtesting and refining these scenarios. But from a competitive perspective, if certain scenario turns out to be one sided, it should be slightly refined.

Current threshold of CCVT is that one side has to win at least 25% of the round games in order for the round's results to count. 1 win out of 4 IMHO give decent odds to that weaker side.

Most of the scenarios listed above have even better odds at 60-40 spread. But that one with 90% win ratio for Brits just wasn't fun tournament environment.


I hate my laptop for erasing an eloquent response....but here is the cheaper version....

I agree totally that you can't use a 10% victory scenario for a tournament when the tournament only awards wins to those who won a scenario.

I know that there are many of you who believe that this is the fair way to do it, but the above statistics make me believe even more strongly that you have to give the 8 Axis players who lost by the least amount a win. Now this means that you then have to figure out how much is a Sudden Death victory worth? a Surrender victory? an early victory due to exiting or elimination? Those all have to be spelled out before the tournament starts! That is very very subjective, but in the end, more fair unless you KNOW that your scenarios are all balanced.

Just my two cents worth. One day I'm going to have a job that lets me just go from Convention to Convention and run all these tournaments and then I'll be happy that the director did everything correctly! LOL (um, totally kidding to any game runners out there!!!!)
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Bryan Collars
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huffman123 wrote:
but in the end, more fair unless you KNOW that your scenarios are all balanced.


Which is why everyone should make sure they buy and have at hand the Tournament Battle Pack.
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Ahmed Hadzi
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Dan,

I picked these scenarios based on the suggestion of Andrew Laws, who designed the battle pack. As I mentioned in my first post, in CCVT, there is no strict review of the games by the referee. Reasons for that are two fold, the games are played via Skype+Vassal over two week period so it's hard to watch them all and my belief that players who miss rules are responsible to decide on how to continue with the game.

Are rules fumbled on some of these plays? Undoubtedly so. This also gives these results certain validity, as they are likely to resemble results produced by casual play.

Since we play 10-20 games of each scenario per round, I thought that some players will like to see what they can expect from any given scenario, and as the time goes by and guild grows, I hope to report even more extensive results.

At the same time, I think that we have an outlet to point out that some scenarios need bit of tweaking in order to be re-playable by two buddies playing the game occasionally.

Point of this list is not to judge, but rather to be a review of game that we all love to play. I always wanted to see similar win-loss statistics for as many scenarios as possible. I believe there was an initiative for that type of list before but it died off.
 
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Dan Huffman
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ahmedhadzi wrote:
Dan,

I picked these scenarios based on the suggestion of Andrew Laws, who designed the battle pack. As I mentioned in my first post, in CCVT, there is no strict review of the games by the referee. Reasons for that are two fold, the games are played via Skype+Vassal over two week period so it's hard to watch them all and my belief that players who miss rules are responsible to decide on how to continue with the game.

Are rules fumbled on some of these plays? Undoubtedly so. This also gives these results certain validity, as they are likely to resemble results produced by casual play.

Since we play 10-20 games of each scenario per round, I thought that some players will like to see what they can expect from any given scenario, and as the time goes by and guild grows, I hope to report even more extensive results.

At the same time, I think that we have an outlet to point out that some scenarios need bit of tweaking in order to be re-playable by two buddies playing the game occasionally.

Point of this list is not to judge, but rather to be a review of game that we all love to play. I always wanted to see similar win-loss statistics for as many scenarios as possible. I believe there was an initiative for that type of list before but it died off.


Ahmed,

My intention wasn't to be critical of you. If it came off that way at all, I'm very sorry. I see lots of flames on BGG and in fact just unsubscribed from a thread to get away from one. So I humbly apologize.

My real point was just to say that I favor a tournament where the Allies are playing against Allies and Axis is against Axis. Then in the last game, hopefully a fair scenario determines the winner. I posted that at some other point and was advised that CC:E and CC: P don't lend themselves to such a system. From your statistics I disagree. But since I don't run the tournaments, I'm certainly not in a position to make a big stink.....but I will make little stinks. :-p

I definitely want to see more statistics on the scenarios!!

Thank you for providing them.
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Ahmed Hadzi
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I wasn't offended at all. I was just trying to expand the context of the project with my post.

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Ahmed Hadzi
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Updated first post to reflect recently played games.
 
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Ahmed Hadzi
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First post updated to include games from CCVT #6.
 
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