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Subject: Game Issues / Ideas rss

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Alexander Williams

Ohio
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Rather than make 10 different posts in different subforums, here's one big post.

Recently purchased the base game and played it for about a week, completing 3, 3-player sessions, completely.

As stated in many places, Seth/Wisp/Spike are utterly overpowered. Wisp early and Spike/Seth late. It's ridiculous to the point where the other two players have very little fun watching Wisp dance around and finish the PvE quests in scenario 1-4 until everyone has some firepower to compensate. Spike basically walked everything to death in the late game. We were thinking of perhaps Spike had to actually attack to use his defense bonus, as he seriously walked into the temple on the last scenario and walked around, killing most everything (troll, mino, 2 sisters, and fang) while taking a single wound. It also means he could get 2-4 'defense' attacks in per movement, so his best move was like 7-8 'attacks' in the same turn. He was like a perma-cleave-defense-killer.

Fang is too easy. Way too easy. He should roll melee dice with a ranged attack. We realized quickly there are more melee icons on a die that ranged icons, so melee inherently hit more often.

Enemies don't scale well. We ended up having them get 1/2 their level in defense rolls, rounded up. Level 1-2 creatures had 1 defense, level 3-4 had 2 defense, etc. Worked fairly well, though the attacks (particularly ranged) from creatures could have been buffed a bit later.

Amnesia is the worst death curse, yet there are three of them and rank 4. Weird.

We changed the reroll pool so you could only use your rerolls on your initial roll. The original reroll pool was just too powerful (and time consuming.)

Scarlet's ability is... pathetic. It needed a good sized boost. Kaya's could use a little something too.

For a good while, we just felt like the rich get richer. Those that can afford the better items can kill more stuff to get the better items, but that theory is really hit or miss. I think the real issue is equipment distribution at the end of a scenario. If you don't get a better weapon / armor, and maybe just some boost items and a spell and a grrrrr or whatever, your characters barely improve. I had a rusty blade on a character on the 5th scenario because I rarely got an actual weapon.

All-in-all, the game is decent. Could be refined to be better. Just some opinions. Oh the rulebook needs to be laid out better. We had to re-read it many times, as it talks about certain rules on page 12, yet the exception to the rule is stated on page 6.

End result was:

Base rules Game 1:
Player 1 (me): I had little fun beyond first scenario. Player 2 (Wisp player) wrecked everyone and wins... every scenario. Player 3 nominates to ban Wisp forever.

Modified rules Game 2 (defense rolls based on creature level, reroll pool modified, allowed players to trade in 2 junk items during item purchase phase to get 2 of the undistributed cards (3 player game)):
Player 1 (me): More fun is had. Seth + Amnesia on last scenario = wtf, Scarlet was a hero that never moved for 4+ scenarios straight, as she was worthless. Player 2 (Wisp player again) wrecked everyone for scenario 1-4 again, Player 3 nominates to ban Wisp forever (again.)

Modified rules Game 3 (same as game 2, plus Wisp is banned):
Player 1 (me): More fun without Wisp. Spike is overpowered and results in me just walking around with no weapon, killing everything in final scenario. Player 2 had fun, Player 3 had fun.

In the end, we're not sure we'd play it again but... it was fun while it lasted. Considering tweaking the rules / abilities so everyone is on a more even playing ground, but might just sell it. As such, not buying an expansion.

All opinions of course. Just thought I'd share them.
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Donny Behne
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Regarding upgrades, are you buying as many items as you can afford or are you limiting yourself to three upgrades in a buy phase? Our first campaign we missed the rule that the most you can buy is three and just bought everything we could afford and found ourselves outpacing enemies and opponents with less money. When we realized the mistake we had made, we played again and found things much more balanced.
 
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Max Maloney
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In my campaign, Wisp has been something of a non-factor. Most quest objectives still require you to kill something so his ability to get to the objective is only half the battle. The lvl 4-5 monsters can put serious hurt on the players, but maybe we've been rolling well for them.
 
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Max Maloney
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kelann08 wrote:
Regarding upgrades, are you buying as many items as you can afford or are you limiting yourself to three upgrades in a buy phase? Our first campaign we missed the rule that the most you can buy is three and just bought everything we could afford

My group made this same mistake the first time we upgraded (fortunately we caught it before the next play and corrected).
 
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Benjamin Symons
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kelann08 wrote:
Regarding upgrades, are you buying as many items as you can afford or are you limiting yourself to three upgrades in a buy phase? Our first campaign we missed the rule that the most you can buy is three and just bought everything we could afford and found ourselves outpacing enemies and opponents with less money. When we realized the mistake we had made, we played again and found things much more balanced.


I am so glad I've read this thread, as I've been making exactly the same mistake...
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Adam K
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It sounds like you may have missed a few things, our play experiences seem to have varied drastically from yours.

Wisp can only pick things up if the space is unoccupied by an enemy. (Most levels start off with enemies on top of items and/or quest tokens to stop him from doing just this.)
 
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Jason Rupp
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I don't want to go all fan boy on you (because I hate that) so just a warning... here are my thoughts and possible fixes . I don't agree with a few things you've said. A few I think you may be playing wrong and a few you can switch up the rules if you feel like it.

If you're having a huge issue with Spike, I would make monster reaction attacks optional from movement. I find this a bigger issue with the ammy of retribution (or even worse, ammy of retribution + spike). Assuming everyone plays to win, I don't see any issues with this change.

I haven't found Wisp to be overpowered. He often dies if someone sends him out on his own. Maybe it's because my group is more blood thirsty or that we always play a 4 player game so the map is more full. If you insist that he's OP you could possibly say his ability doesn't work on villians. If you want to go even further you could say his ability doesn't work on major's as well.

I've found enemies scale well enough. The first level where they level up they're fairly hard. The second level when using the same card (for example level 4 on 3-4 card) they are a bit easier but that's okay. Enemies aren't meant to be huge threats. If they roll well and you aren't currently using your tank decked out with + armor and rerolls, then they can usually kill your character on a good roll.

Scarlet isn't amazing but her ability isn't that bad. Don't forget it works with enemies so if you attack an enemy hero next to an orc, you'll get to roll +1 die. With the right equipment (self healing gear) Kanga can be pretty sweet too. Constantly using a really good sword without resting can be really nice.

The rich do get richer but I've found gold is so easy to come by it doesn't really matter except in extreme rare situations where someone wins super early in a round. The title rewards are pretty huge but they're only applicable if you play that mission. I find it pretty cool.

RE: Death Curses: Don't forget that you can cure a death curse with a healing potion.

RE: Fang- He's not amazing but he will last a few hits. Don't forget that he still gets to attack even if he's killed and if his heal heals him, he's not dead.

3 player might be weird with the drafting. If a lot of the good cards aren't being dealt out it could lead to a weird game. We always play 4 player so all of the cards are always in play.
 
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Alexander Williams

Ohio
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Yeah, we were playing where you could buy a max of 3 items, if you had gold. So I don't think that was an issue.

Well, I suppose we didn't to make monster reaction attacks optional. It might make Spike more 'normal' though I think he'd turn into Wisp 2.0 later on, waltzing around doing everything. I like the idea that his ability can only be used on counter-attacks, as it then keeps up the threat of just walk past every enemy so the other players will let them attack you.

We still felt the monsters didn't scale well, and with our modified defense rolls they got for their level, it helped. Yes, sometimes an orc marauder could roll 7-9 damage, but it was rare. Fang particularly, his 5 ranged dice just seemed weak (and it usually was.) Perhaps that's part of the game is that the monsters pose little challenge later; however, err... we like challenge.

Kanga with self-healing gear I understand would be good, but the problem is trying to play a character based around the hope you get the complementing equipment later. Sure you might get it and be awesome, but if you don't... well... We found Zazu's ability kept him just as fresh without taking damage and was more desirable than Kanga.

Scarlet, I thought she could handle at least having +1 to all dice rolls while something is flanked - basically she'd get an extra defense roll too in that situation.

Wisp, yes we realized he had to kill whatever was there to get the quest item. I believe Game #2 involved Wisp + Displacement Cloak to constantly switch out to someone else, kill monster + get quest item, switch back, wisp-it to somewhere else, switch, repeat.

Oh, I know about the death curse thing, but if someone had the title to place all the tokens on the final level, you're SOL usually. Actually, the last scenario we played in the temple/last level involved the two healing potions were the two unused tokens. I lucked out by dying to a trap and drawing the level 7 curse.

Yeah, we realized the 3 player game was causing the drafting equipment problem, as sometimes many of the good items could be left unseen. So we modified it a bit and it helped.

I'm not trying to argue anything, just giving feedback of a week of pretty much nonstop playing this game through 3 full games.

Thanks for additional feedback. I know everything can't be perfectly balanced, and it's a game. The point is to have fun.
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Jason Rupp
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Yukichu wrote:

Well, I suppose we didn't to make monster reaction attacks optional. It might make Spike more 'normal' though I think he'd turn into Wisp 2.0 later on, waltzing around doing everything.


You could say the same thing about ANY character that focuses solely on defense. If you focus on D with Spike and you can no longer kill people by just walking past them... you'll be wishing you had more offensive weapons on him.

Yukichu wrote:

We still felt the monsters didn't scale well, and with our modified defense rolls they got for their level, it helped. Yes, sometimes an orc marauder could roll 7-9 damage, but it was rare. Fang particularly, his 5 ranged dice just seemed weak (and it usually was.) Perhaps that's part of the game is that the monsters pose little challenge later; however, err... we like challenge.


Do you guys not attack each other very often? Even taking a wound or two from an orc can spell death in our group. We are like sharks with blood in the water. I don't believe the monsters are supposed to be giant threats but we feel some of the monsters are pretty scary (Minotaur, Troll) on any quest. It almost sounds like your group focuses really really heavily on defense. Don't forget you can only wear 1 armor on each character (I assume you know that). Maybe for your next campaign... remove the armor cards or make them cost double.

Yukichu wrote:

Oh, I know about the death curse thing, but if someone had the title to place all the tokens on the final level, you're SOL usually.


You should have won the title then The game provides means to get around crappy curse draws.

Glad to hear you're enjoying the game enough to play that much at least! The heroes aren't perfectly balanced (I don't think that's possible) but I think you are exaggerating the imbalances via groupthink. The only heroes I would think about banning are KS heroes. No defense dice against sword attacks is.... a bit much, for example.

I would suggest making reactions optional and nerfing armor though! You guys might have a better time.

 
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Osku Odi
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The normal minions dont really pose a threat, but the goblins for example are supposed to look like gold pieces I suppose. The bigger monsters might pose a threat, since they'll atleast do some damage and then some other hero kills your wounded hero.

I'd say the base characters are pretty well balanced (yes, there are some stronger ones), at least in a 4 player game. We usually just randomly deal the hero cards, so you keep 1 of 3 and pass the other 2 forward. That way there really isnt a possibility that Spike and Seth end up on the same player. That way Spike isnt as big of a problem. If I have Spike, I do everything in my power to keep Seth dead and vice versa

The last 3-4 games we've played with all the expansion characters (dealing them out the same way), and I must say that even though the games have been a lot of fun (because of the new abilities), they havent been as balanaced.
 
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