Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
18 Posts

Commands & Colors: Napoleonics» Forums » Rules

Subject: Shooting Over Units rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Nick Dotzenrod
United States
Novi
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
So can artillery never shoot over any units during combined fire? Or only if that one unit is the unit involved in the combined fire?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
The Honorable Salmon P. Chase
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That's a good question. I've always played that it can't shoot over the heads of a friendly unit if that friendly unit is involved in combined arms combat. However, now that I'm looking at the rules again, they do say:

GMT rulebook, page 20 wrote:
An Artillery unit on a hill, however, may not be ordered as part of a Combined Arms Combat if it has to fire over the heads of a friendly unit on a lower adjacent hex (See Combined
Arms Combat).


GMT rulebook, page 18 wrote:
An Artillery unit on a hill may not combine arms if it must fire over the heads of a friendly unit on a lower adjacent hex.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moe45673
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
I thought that the hill ability for artillery was completely negated if it was using combined arms.... although if an enemy unit was nearby, the artillery would have to attack it due to the rule that if a unit can attack in melee, it can only attack in melee.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Pereira
Portugal
Porto
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
No, in a Combined Arms Combat an artillery unit can never shoot over the heads of any units. Other units block their line of sight.

In a Combined Arms Combat the rules state:

"All ordered artillery units in the combined arms combat must be in range and have a clear line of sight to enemy unit that is being attacked".

The unit making the meele attack can block the line of sight of artillery.
Remember that the artillery units that are joining must be ordered and will not attack again in the turn they combine arms.

In the description of the Hill Terrain its said:

"An artillery unit on a Hill hex may fire over a friendly unit or leader that is on an adjacent lower hex as long as that hex has
no other terrain feature that would block the artillery unit’s line of sight.

An Artillery unit on a hill, however, may not be ordered as part of a Combined Arms Combat if it has to fire over the heads of a friendly unit on a lower adjacent hex (See Combined Arms Combat)"

Moe45673 wrote:
I thought that the hill ability for artillery was completely negated if it was using combined arms.... although if an enemy unit was nearby, the artillery would have to attack it due to the rule that if a unit can attack in melee, it can only attack in melee.


If there's an enemy unit adjacent to the artillery it can't shoot anywere but can move or battle (foot artillery) or move and battle (horse artillery) in meele if ordered.

The rules state in RANGED COMBAT (FIRE):
"A unit adjacent to an enemy unit may not fire on another, more
distant, enemy unit. If the unit chooses to battle, the unit must
melee combat the adjacent enemy unit."
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Dotzenrod
United States
Novi
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Can someone explain the reasoning behind this ruling? I can understand it if it only is meant for adjacent units trying to conduct combined fire, but I do not understand why an adjacent unit that is not the unit involved in the combined fire has any affect on the artillery for combined fire attacks orchestrated with a unit 2+ hexes away. I feel most of the rules have a historical influence, so that is why I am curious, but if it is just one of those "thats just the rules" I can accept that as well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Pereira
Portugal
Porto
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bassman211 wrote:
Can someone explain the reasoning behind this ruling?


Well this is the napoleonic era and even in the peak of the artillery some years later they didn't fire at the enemy line when they're army was about to engage from behind them. Imagine taking friendly fire, and not so accurate one.

On the other hand if an enemy unit is close to the artillery do you think they will be supporting their units in the front or protecting themselves.

In a combined arms they would probably use the Howitzers that used ammunitions that packed explosive shells. They had a reputation of being unreliable since they would often explode too earlier(imagine if it happened above their unit) or not even at all. However, in the cases in which the shell exploded on the target, the results were devastating, especially towards cavalry units.

But rules are rules and they are a form of putting order to the system, so, even if it's only "thats just the rules" I'm ok with it.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Guillaume Gleize
France
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I also played my hundreds of battles against numerous good players with a unit being able to shoot OVER a friendly unit downhill during a combine attack if this unit were not the combine one!

... ???
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Minot
North Dakota
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
bassman211 wrote:
Can someone explain the reasoning behind this ruling?


I believe Artillery is allowed to fire over troops into enemy troops under the assumption that they are as close or closer to the friendly artillery as to the target. If the combined fire is over the heads assaulting troops, it could be assumed they are no closer to the target then to the friendlies (putting them at risk of "under" fires.)

Also, it would be assumed artillery in a close assault situation would be using the best antipersonnel shot available (case for the Brits, long range canister and/or howitzer shells for everyone); none of which you would want to shoot with friendly troops to your front, under you or no. That (along with simplicity/consistency), is why I believe even non-engaged units block artillery from close assaulting.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Guillaume Gleize
France
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Sorry Nimitz for my poor reading of English but so:

Can I shoot with guns over friendly units downhill in a combine attack if the downhill unit is NOT participating in the combine attack ???

For me AND FOR MANY it's yes!

But I don't pretend this is the good rule ... We may ALL be wrong!

What do you think?

TY - GG
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Dippel
Germany
Rheinhausen
Baden-Württemberg
flag msg tools
I am from Bavaria
badge
King Ludwig II of Bavaria
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Quote:
orry Nimitz for my poor reading of English but so:

Can I shoot with guns over friendly units downhill in a combine attack if the downhill unit is NOT participating in the combine attack ???


As i always say, a picture says more than 1000 words, so what about only 1 picture GG, and you dont need any one word of your "poor" english and you
will get the right answer immediately, because we see what you mean

But indifferent of this, the "combined" attack is very clear explained in the rulebook, but show me your example


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls

Minot
North Dakota
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
GGleize wrote:
Sorry Nimitz for my poor reading of English but so:

Can I shoot with guns over friendly units downhill in a combine attack if the downhill unit is NOT participating in the combine attack ???

For me AND FOR MANY it's yes!

But I don't pretend this is the good rule ... We may ALL be wrong!

What do you think?

TY - GG


IF I understand you correctly, you are playing the rule wrong. As posted above, artillery in combined assault are not allowed to fire over ANY friendly unit, regardless of whether that friendly unit is actually involved in the combined assault.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scipio O.
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
rules wrote:
An Artillery unit on a hill may not combine arms if it has to fire over the heads of a friendly unit on a lower adjacent hex.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Dippel
Germany
Rheinhausen
Baden-Württemberg
flag msg tools
I am from Bavaria
badge
King Ludwig II of Bavaria
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Quote:
Can I shoot with guns over friendly units downhill in a combine attack if the downhill unit is NOT participating in the combine attack ???


Therefore i wanted to see an example picture, because i can´t understand,
how any ART, which makes a combined attack, "is not participating in the combine attack" whistle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roel van M.
Netherlands
Tilburg
The Netherlands
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Bayernkini wrote:
Quote:
Can I shoot with guns over friendly units downhill in a combine attack if the downhill unit is NOT participating in the combine attack ???


Therefore i wanted to see an example picture, because i can´t understand,
how any ART, which makes a combined attack, "is not participating in the combine attack" whistle


He is talking about a unit that's downhill in front of the ART and that unit is not part of the attack. The ART of course is.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Dippel
Germany
Rheinhausen
Baden-Württemberg
flag msg tools
I am from Bavaria
badge
King Ludwig II of Bavaria
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Ok now i understand, what GG meant.
But as some others post already

"An Artillery unit on a hill, however, may not be ordered
as part of a Combined Arms Combat if it has to fire over the
heads of a friendly unit on a lower adjacent hex (See Combined
Arms Combat)"


This rule is clear and the "friendly unit on a lower adjacent hex" must not be a part of the combined attack itself.
There is not one word about it into rules.
Everything else would be a personally interpretation of the players

But if the players want, i could add this very clear rule into the FAQ,
to be it´s official then

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Todd Rewoldt
United States
Loveland
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Even though the "how can an ART which makes a combined attack not be participating in a combined attack" riddle has been answered, here are a few pictures to clarify my own understanding of the rules, if nothing else:

Example 1 - Not allowed:


Example 2 - Allowed (note, no combined arms here, just a simple ranged attack from the artillery, though in practice I would attack from hex C first ):


Example 3 - Not allowed:


Example 4 - Allowed:


And these last two go out to you, GG - thanks for helping me to clear up #6!

Example 5 - Not allowed:


Example 6 - Allowed:


If anyone sees any mistakes, please let me know and I'll get them corrected.
4 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Dippel
Germany
Rheinhausen
Baden-Württemberg
flag msg tools
I am from Bavaria
badge
King Ludwig II of Bavaria
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Example 2 is same as 1 and therefore
combined attack not allowed, a single attack of ART, is allowed
(to be sure, all see only 1 yellow dot )

All other seems correct, but in all other "allowed" situations, the ART must not fire over any other unit

And again, this combined attack rule is one of the clearest rule in the rulebook, so any other interpretation should never come up

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Todd Rewoldt
United States
Loveland
Colorado
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Bayernkini wrote:
Example 2 is same as 1 and therefore
combined attack not allowed, a single attack of ART, is allowed
(to be sure, all see only 1 yellow dot )



Yup, I could have been more explicit in the description, but no ca in example 2 - just a contrast to show that hex C does not block line of sight for a simple ranged attack from the artillery unit there.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.