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Subject: Morgan #3 and Guinevere Questions rss

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Stephen Preischel
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I've seen some references to these rules in other posts but I can't find the answers exactly. Sorry if they've already been answered and if anyone can post links to the answers that would be great!

First, if Morgan #3 (play the next 3 black cards) is drawn and the Knights choose not to use 3 Merlins to discard it, is it possible for the Knights to use 3 Merlins on any of the cards drawn due to the result of Morgan #3 coming into play?

Second, Guinevere's card "immediately sends all the Knights to Camelot". If a Knight was battling seige engines can he stay where he is since that's part of Camelot or must he go to the Round Table? If the answer to that is "yes" would it also be possible for a Knight to go to the seige engine area instead of the Round Table when sent back by Guinevere's card, assuming no other Knight was there already? If those previous two things are possible, should players choose in clockwise order where to go, starting with the player who drew Guinevere? If players have to go back to the round table you can ignore all the other questions
 
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Adam Smiles
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No, once you accept the playing of Morgan #3, all of the subsequent cards are played to full effect.

When you are in Camelot, you have 2 options. Draw cards or fight seige engines. You don't have to move between the round table and the battlefield, as they are both part of Camelot. So if you fought seige engines on your last turn and then Guinevere appears, you don't have to do anything, because you're already in Camelot.
 
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Stephen Preischel
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Would this mean that you could move to the seige engine fighting area instead of the Round Table when the Guinevere card comes up? If so, in what order would players move? The card says "immediately" return to Camelot but if more than one player would like to go to the seige engine area in what order should they decide? Regular gaming rules would suggest starting with the player who drew Guinevere and proceeding clockwise from there.
 
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Adam Smiles
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Camelot is one area. When you are sitting at the round table, and you take a camelot action, you may either draw cards or fight siege engines. There is no siege engine area to move your knights to. There is no choice when Guinevere is played, everyone goes to the round table.
 
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Stephen Preischel
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Really? You don't move your character onto the purple circle by the siege engines to indicate you're fighting seige engines? More importantly, you can't sit in that spot as the traitor to keep others out? Than why all the talk about moving freely between the seige engine area and the Round Table if you don't actually move at all?
 
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Adam Smiles
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There is no limit to the number of knights who may be in Camelot and therefore no limit to the number of them who may fight seige engines. I've seen games where 3 or 4 players spend there last few actions fighting seige engines, to buy time for the other players to finish off that last quest and get the necessary swords for victory.
 
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Stephen Preischel
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Wow. We've been playing that you need to be in the seige engine area in order to fight the seige engines. Granted it's free to move back and forth between the Round Table and the seige engine area so there are no actions wasted if two or more Knights want to all fight seige engines. But we've played that if a Knight stays in the seige engine circle no other Knights can fight the seige engines. This has been a useful tool for the traitor, especially if he wants to get himself exposed. Hmmm, I'm not sure if I like the real rule better or not. We'll give it a try! Thanks.
 
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Stephen Preischel
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Has this officially been addressed at the Days of Wonder site? It's not in the FAQ. The rules (Pg 11 Book of Quests) state that "When spending a turn at Camelot a Knight may either Stay at the Round Table...or visit the Seige area to try and destroy a Seige Engine." This would imply that the Round Table and the Seige Area are two separate locations. They're close enough to each other that no action needs to be used to move between the two, but they are separate. At any given time a Knight could be in one or the other but not both simultaneously. "The Seige Area, located just outside Camelot's walls, is the area where the Seige Engines are placed." Since there is a spot "just outside Camelot's walls" to place a Knight while he's fighting Seige Engines (at least I can't figure out any other purpose for the bright, purple circle in the Seige area near the Black Card draw pile) it seems like a Knight should be in that area when fighting them and would need to return to the Round Table before the next Knight could fight Seige Engines. These movements between the Round Table and the Seige Area are free so two or more loyal Knights would have no problem teaming up on the Seige Engines, but a Knight would need to decide at the end of his turn which of the two areas he will be occupying when his turn ends. If this has been officially answered could someone post a link? Thanks again!
 
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Paul Sauberer
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The question is answered in the rulebook on the page you describe in the section you quote.

A player spending a turn in Camelot may either stay at the round table or visit the siege area.

There is no mention of fighting siege engines being a single knight quest. Nor is there a space on the board to place a knight outside the walls, i.e. there is no space for a knight to "move to" to fight siege engines. A knight simply moves to Camelot, not to Camelot- Round Table as opposed to Camelot- Siege Engine Area. When a knight goes to Camelot (that's it- just Camelot) he is placed in his seat at the Round Table. That's where knights are placed in Camelot. When that player's turn comes up, if he stays in Camelot and does a quest, he takes one of the two options given and performs it. The rules are fairly clear about this.

Of course, you may play however you like as long as everyone playing agrees, but it would be a variant.
 
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Mark Christopher
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Phollower wrote:
But we've played that if a Knight stays in the seige engine circle no other Knights can fight the seige engines.

Note that the purple seige engine circle is just a symbol showing that quest, not a place for the knight to stand. There's a similar symbol for each spot on the map. Take a look at http://www.boardgamegeek.com/fullimage/84637 and note the axe symbol for the Saxons, which is distinct from the 7 circles available for the knights.
 
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Stephen Preischel
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PAUL- The line you quoted is exactly where my confusion comes from. It says "stay at the Round Table OR VISIT the Seige Area". The "OR VISIT" would imply that they are two separate options in two separate areas because you need to VISIT the Seige Area. It doesn't say something like "direct a battle against the Seige Engines from the Round Table".

MARK- Yep, I see the spots you mean and I see how they differ from the solo quest "Knight" areas.

I guess I'm surprised we're the only group who interpreted the rules that way. I suggest giving this variation a try, especially if you're someone who has a problem with the game being too easy. That's not me, but I ain't the brightest bulb on the tree. Being able to block the seige engine area is a nice tactic for the traitor and is a good way to force the loyal Knights to accuse him in order to get him out of the way. It's also an additional thing for loyal Knights to think about when they suspect someone of being a traitor. "Should I stay here and block the potential traitor, arousing suspicion against me, or should I hope other loyal Knights are the only ones to come here..."

 
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Paul Sauberer
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Phollower wrote:
PAUL- The line you quoted is exactly where my confusion comes from. It says "stay at the Round Table OR VISIT the Seige Area". The "OR VISIT" would imply that they are two separate options in two separate areas because you need to VISIT the Seige Area. It doesn't say something like "direct a battle against the Seige Engines from the Round Table".


But it does say earlier on the page, "Please note that these two areas form a single entity for the purpose of movement (i.e. no action is required to go from one to the other, they are simply two sides of the same location." (emphasis added)

So, once you are in Camelot, you are at both areas. Once there, you have a choice of doing A or B. It doesn't have to say that you can battle siege engines from the Round Table because the Round Table is the only place you can be.

The only restirctions on these actions are hand size if you want to draw cards. Nowhere is it even implied that you can be prevented from fighting siege engines.

 
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Stephen Preischel
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Fair enough. Either way, I recommend trying it with only one Knight being allowed in the Seige Area at a time. It adds another thing to think about when in Camelot and gives the traitor more options. Thanks for the discussion.
 
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Mike Compton
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The point has been missed with respect to the Guinevere card. It isn't disputed that fighting sieges is part of the Camelot quest. The trick is that each turn is divided into two parts:
1. Progression of Evil.
2. Heroic Action

Here is the quoted text direct from the card:

Quote:
All Knights are summoned to Camelot. They receive no White cards. The turn ends immediately. Remove all White cards from all forfeited Solo Quests.


Yes all of the knights return to Camelot but the key is this phrase:

Quote:
The turn ends immediately.


This means that the knight who drew the black card does not get to do a heroic action on their turn because the heroic action is the second half of a player's turn. By clarifying that the turn ends, the card makes it clear that, once the knights are back at Camelot, the turn ends immediately - therefore, no heroic action as the turn would have to continue for that to be permitted.
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    Can someone cite me the rule that specifies you can't use three Merlins to counter the effect of one of the three cards drawn? I have found nothing that indicates you can't. The rules indicate that you can negate the effects of a card "about to come into play as a result of the Progression of Evil."

    Update -- I did find the following entry from Bruno de Montagnes, "Senior Member" in the DoW forums:

    "No, you can't ! I don't know how to say that correctly in english, but these 3 cards are not cards played individually, but they are the result of effect of Morgan. So you apply their effect without having any choice to place theme face down to get white cards, or to counter a special black coming in these 3 cards with 3 merlins. The only thing you can do is to refuse these Morgan, playinf 3 merlin to counter it !
(it's understandable ? Confused )"



Sag.
 
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Alex Eaton-Salners
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See also

3rd Morgan and Guinevere
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/70155
 
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Ryan Twombly
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I think the discussion of movement to outside the walls of Camelot is a moot point. Fighting Siege Engines is a persistent solo quest. Winning or loosing a quest automatically boots a Knight back to the Round Table (I know it says Camelot, but let's say the RT for the sake of this argument). So, anytime somebody fights a SE, win or lose they go immediately back to the RT.

The sequence would be like this:

1) Play Guinevere; all Knights go to the Round Table; turn ends
2) next player advances evil, then decides to fight a SE; loses, goes back to Round Table
3) next player advances evil, then decides to fight a SE; wins, removes SE, goes back to Round Table
4) ...

Since moving between Round Table and outside is free, there's no need to move there in advance. On the other hand, you could not move from an out-of-Camelot quest to Camelot AND fight a SE with one Heroic Action. For that matter you could not win a quest, move automatically back to Camelot, exert yourself, and fight a SE, as winning the quest would be a "Quest Action" as is "Fighting a Siege Engine", and you can't repeat the same type of action after exerting yourself, even if the action is on a different quest. You COULD move into Camelot, exert, and fight, as "Move" is different from "Do a Quest Action".

If I'm wrong on any of those points, please correct me. I do move the Knight outside to fight, as it seems more thematic, but as long as you always move back to the RT afterward, the effect is the same.
 
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