Recommend
12 
 Thumb up
 Hide
35 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Cthulhu Wars» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Green: The power of the first round. A detailed look. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: Varia [+] [View All]
Kyle S.
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
(*Edit Note* I only have the base game, so this analysis will only focus on a 4 player game with the 4 base factions. I don't have knowledge or experience with expansion factions or 5+ player games to include notes in those scenarios)

I have played a ton of CW since it arrived. Every time I bring it to my FLGS for game nights, it's a big hit, and I've had a few regulars to play with. As the meta game for our group keeps evolving there have been noticeable differences in how we view different aspects of the game. Today I'd like to discuss the early game of Green.

For many of us, and it seems many of you from reading these forums, it is Blue that dictates the early game and the first round in particular. Blue is at a nice advantage in the first round, since they can easily build 3 gates safely if they want. The mere threat of a Nightgaunt prevents Green and Red from even thinking about exploring 3 gate openings because it can be punished heavily by Blue, and Yellow will never even consider a 3rd gate over the first turn KiY. Red has adapted nicely to this as well, as they have 2 very solid opening options regardless of what the others do that set them up well for the future (1. Fast Shub Opening and 2. The Red Sign Opening).

With Red and Yellow both having standardized opening rounds, and with Green usually so afraid of the Nightgaunt that forces him to build at least 1 unit to defend a gate, Blue usually is free and more than happy to open with 3 gates which will set him up with a spellbook and control of the 2nd round with more power.

Green has been my weakest faction by far. It's hard in this game to be a straight up bully and win at the same time because you will get ganged up on. So I have spent the last few games playing Green and trying to tighten up my gameplan. And what I found after a few games was pretty cool. It was not Blue who dictated that first round. It was me.

Consider this in game scenario, as this is usually how it's going to play out:
-Green moves 1 cultist (Ocean area, I like North Pacific)(7pp)
-Blue moves 1 cultist (7pp)
-Green builds gate (4pp)
-Blue builds gate (4pp)

Pretty standard right? Now here is where it gets tricky, and because Green starts off as first player we are at a disadvantage. If we have the option as Green to open with 3 controlled gates, that is what we would really prefer to do (more power plus early ocean spellbook). But if we can't build and control 3 gates, our job is to make sure Blue doesn't either. We can be the bully without straight up looking like one.

-Green moves 1 cultist (2nd ocean area)(3pp)

We position ourselves like we are going for our 3rd Ocean gate, which not only sets us up for our best case scenario, but at the very least we want to bait out a Nightgaunt.

- IF Blue summons a Nightgaunt (3pp) -or- a Polyp (2pp) in response:
This is a win for us since Blue can no longer build his 3rd gate. With 3 power left for us, we can move our cultist back and summon 2 Deep Ones or 1 Shoggoth to defend if Blue comes our way. We will both start the next round with 10 Power and since we'd own the tiebreaker in that scenario, we can choose to force Blue to be first player next round putting him in a weaker position. Blue will either play right into this, or run off to eat a Yellow or possibly Red cultist instead to start at 11 power, but it's we who denied him an early 3rd gate and forced him to make an enemy other than us early on. And we are no worse off than if we planned for a defended 2 gate opening at the start. But Blue could make a different move...

- IF Blue moves 1 cultist (3pp) in response:
This makes our choice a bit harder. Even after the cultist move, 3pp is enough power to summon a Nightgaunt, move it, and capture one of our gates if we choose to build our 3rd gate with power to spare. Even if we build the gate and take devolve as a spellbook, Blue can summon the Nightgaunt, move it to our gate which forces us to devolve, then move another cultist onto our gate. None of these are good outcomes. But we still don't want Blue to build that third gate. We still want to be the ones in charge.

Let's step back for a minute asses locations. If we built our first gate in the North Pacific like I suggested, our 2 gates are within reach of popular second gate choices for Blue, which include North/South America, Arctic Ocean, Antarctica, North/South Atlantic, North/South Asia, and Austrailia. The places we can't reach are East Africa, Arabia, and Scandinavia. They won't build that first gate in Scandinavia, either because Yellow is planning to summon KiY there off the bat, or if not, it is easily punished early by Yellow with Zingya. Arabia suffers from that same concern with Yellow while at the same time knocking on Red's backdoor making it a very high risk gate that early. If they build their second gate in East Africa that's safe from us, but if Red doesn't open with Shub off the bat, East Africa tends to be a favorite 2nd gate area for Red since it's out of immediate reach of Yellow and our Green.

There is a better than good chance that either Blue's 2nd gate or the Cultist they just moved are in an area that is adjacent to one of our gates. Worst case scenario for us here is that they built the gate in East Africa and moved the cultist to Arabia (though Yellow and Red will likely take advantage of this in the 2nd round). So what is our move?

- Summon Deep One to North/South Pacific (2pp) (Whichever is in reach of Blue's 2nd Gate or preferably his lone Cultist. If they both are out of reach, go North Pacific since you can reach South Asia)
This works for us in multiple ways. We may have shown our cards that a 3rd gate is not an option for us anymore, but we are playing like we are just defending our gate while still having enough power to make a play at his units. We have put Blue in a corner.

- IF Blue now builds 3rd Gate (0pp)
We use our last 2pp to move in our Deep One in and capture their lone Cultist on a gate, or worst case scenario we move into South Asia and capture a cultist there. This is not a bad way to end the first round for us, but I find it very unlikely that the Blue player will choose to hand us a gate like this. We have now kinda forced the Blue played into his other option...

- IF Blue Summons a Nightgaunt in response (2pp)
Success again! We have baited out a monster from Blue denying him the 3rd gate option. With only 2pp left they can't make a play on our gates or our lone cultist without us responding appropriately.


Final Thoughts

Green can't survive a game of CW being the straight up bully the entire time. To be successful in the long term, we have to find other ways to dictate the game on our terms and keep everyone else in check. The above thought experiment is trying to demonstrate that there can be other ways of thinking about how to play Green, and this can be extended into future rounds (there is far too much variation in future rounds to do outlines in this fashion though). The key for me is to not play scared. Allowing Blue game after game to easily take 3 opening gates because the rest of us are afraid of Blue's harassment is not the mindset I wanted any longer. I am the Great Cthulhu after all!

Helpful? Waste of space? Let me know below.
22 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam
United States
New York
NY
flag msg tools
Definitely helpful. Do you have thoughts on how and when Cthulhu gets his doom points? I keep seeing Cthulhu gain an early lead by ritualing several turns in a row with 3 gates and his GOO, then get ganged up on in the midgame and vanish. On the other hand, however, Cthulhu can't really rack up the elder signs, and his powers aren't conducive to spreading out quickly and taking a lot of gates in a single turn. What has worked for you?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
sacha cauvin
France
rouen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
THIS is sick
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pierre Lanrezac
France
Chatou
Yvelines
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Very interesting analysis, however for the moment I do favor a:
turn 1: Build one Gate (South Atlantic), one Deep One and one Starspawn
turn 2: attack with the StarSpawn (with Regeneration)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kyle S.
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
detritus9 wrote:
Definitely helpful. Do you have thoughts on how and when Cthulhu gets his doom points? I keep seeing Cthulhu gain an early lead by ritualing several turns in a row with 3 gates and his GOO, then get ganged up on in the midgame and vanish. On the other hand, however, Cthulhu can't really rack up the elder signs, and his powers aren't conducive to spreading out quickly and taking a lot of gates in a single turn. What has worked for you?
Some thoughts here.

Elder Signs:
Green has the most expensive Elder Signs in the game outside of Rituals. We get 2 for free, but outside of that, they cost us 4 power each (when we reawaken Cthulhu). Compare that to 1 power for Red (cost of a cultist with Blood Sacrifice), 1-2 for Yellow (Third Eye/Desecrate), and .5 power for each sign with Blues battles against other GOOs. If you're game plan revolves around sacrificing Cthulhu multiple times to gain Elder Signs, I think this is a costly mistake from an economic standpoint. You are going to get out-valued power for power in the long run, especially against Red.

Being the Apex Bully
What happens when you are the meanest kid on the block of bad kids? You are going to get taken down. What I wanted to explore in the original post was the philosophy that you can be the biggest bully without seeming like the biggest bully. Instead of taking candy from the baby, prevent the baby from getting the candy in the first place. The million dollar word is denial. You have to deny the other factions from staging huge swing turns before they are given the option, and deny them good options to take your gates.

Shoggoth are your gate defenders. Keep some Deep Ones/Cultists with them at key gates you want to defend and make factions pay for moving in. Shubb will not want to Avatar into those areas, KiY will not want to desecrate in them like a sitting duck, and make it so that Blue will have to trade gate for gate if they move in (North Pacific and Indian Ocean are key staging grounds).

The Game of Power and Denial
I made a big deal of staying with Blue power-wise in the first round. Green is expensive, and they don't have many tools to become more cost efficient. If you fall behind in-power, the other factions will again find it easy to out-value you. So you have to force the issue and keep their power in check.

Denying Blue that 3rd gate in the first round follows this philosophy. After that, Blue has Two major windows where they will be vulnerable to take away their power base (1. When they awaken Narly and 2. When they spend the chunk of 6 power for their Spellbook). Red always has weak areas, but will have a ton of weak areas if you let them. Deny them both 4th Gates (or seek outside help to do it) because you will need to keep as even in power as possible.

I don't feel that spending power to ritual every turn with 3 gates and your GOO is worth the price of falling behind in power and letting your rivals have huge swing turns against you. Making it more difficult for them to ritual in the meantime is just as good.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kyle S.
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Pitpipo wrote:
Very interesting analysis, however for the moment I do favor a:
turn 1: Build one Gate (South Atlantic), one Deep One and one Starspawn
turn 2: attack with the StarSpawn (with Regeneration)
I much prefer the North Pacific. Applying early pressure to Blue is more important then, where as you can more easily pressure Red in the mid rounds with Cthulhu.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
shion smith
msg tools
When do you bring out Cthulhu, turn 3?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Long
United Kingdom
Fen Drayton
Cambridgeshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nice analysis. Things are further complicated when Sleeper can use the consume a power from everyone while earning a spellbook.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Cochran
United States
Costa Mesa
California
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmb
shion_ca wrote:
When do you bring out Cthulhu, turn 3?
There's a question: should you bring him out on round 3, or is it better to just blow all 10 power in round 2 and sit? If so, what should you do with him on round 3?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
shion smith
msg tools
Yeah the reason I ask is it seems for many people Cthulhu round 2 is a go to. However I personally find it risky (and boring). If you do bring out Cthulhu round 2, that leaves you sitting with nothing to do the entire round, and if someone's clever they'll take your other gate (hey it only has a starspawn/2 deep ones/shuggoth on it), killing/paining/forcing you to devolve the cultist that was on the non-Goo gate.

maybe the shuby for this with his avatar (summoning 2 ghouls for 0 cost to buffer your attack if you choose to send the creature to his home base) But many other ways it can happen (night gaunts, etc).

Then you start round 3 with 1 gate and five cultists, so 7 energy (unless they built ocean gates and you took the appropriate spell book).

So it's sort of what happens next that really troubles me.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kolby Reddish
United States
Nampa
Idaho
flag msg tools
designer
the Yellow Sign?
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jsciv wrote:
shion_ca wrote:
When do you bring out Cthulhu, turn 3?
There's a question: should you bring him out on round 3, or is it better to just blow all 10 power in round 2 and sit? If so, what should you do with him on round 3?
I've noticed in our group games that a Cthulhu that spends all of their power to summon Cthulhu in round 2 has yet to win. My strategy of choice is to pick up Devolve and Dreams during round 2, and use them to steal a gate at one point in the turn. This allows you to summon Cthulhu turn 3 and still have power left to accomplish something (small).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pierre Lanrezac
France
Chatou
Yvelines
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Bigfoote wrote:


I much prefer the North Pacific. Applying early pressure to Blue is more important then, where as you can more easily pressure Red in the mid rounds with Cthulhu.
You can chose Indian Ocean then and threaten both at the same time
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kyle S.
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Cthulhu Summon on Round 2?

This should not be a forgone conclusion. My philosophy is the Green needs to keep as even as possible powerwise to the leader which will prevent factions from having those huge swing turns against you. I put a lot of emphasis in denying Blue that 3rd opening gate so we start the second round with equal power. I think ideally you wait until round 3 when you have a larger power base so you can do some things (like submerge with a starspawn) right after. Only have 1 action in a round can be brutal since other factions will play a lot differently knowing you are no longer a factor.

-If Blue uses his only 10 power to summon Narly 2nd round, mirror that and get Cthulhu. Neither of you are increasing your power base, and Blue will need to spend a lot of power in gates in the 3rd round. If Red went for Red Sign opening in the 1st round, expect Shub to come in the 3rd round with power to spare to Avatar. Promise Submerged retribution if he Avatar's you early. Red is more scared of you than Blue at this point in the game (or should be).

-If Red gets Shub 1st round you should never consider Cthulhu in the 2nd. You're 2 gates will be 1 gate by round 3.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kyle S.
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Pitpipo wrote:
Bigfoote wrote:


I much prefer the North Pacific. Applying early pressure to Blue is more important then, where as you can more easily pressure Red in the mid rounds with Cthulhu.
You can chose Indian Ocean then and threaten both at the same time
You don't have access to North/South America or Arctic Ocean however and these are the most common places for Blue to build their 2nd gate thats out of the way of Yellow and Red.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
shion smith
msg tools
I believe if red does shub on round 2, he can still be an issue if you do Cthulu.

setup - red does a safe 2 gate turn 1.
Red in turn 1 has some meat shield where he plans on summoning shub.

Turn 2 (assuming red didn't eat a cultist the previous round and has only 10 energy)

You summon Cthulhu,
Red summon's Shub,
Red avatar's shub to your non cthulhu spot.
You choose your Shuggoth or your cultist to swap.... so which do you choose?

Option A) You choose cultist to swap, to keep the monster with combat dice a threat to shub.

Then red summons cultist and takes gate. Red will have a chance at most energy next round and get to act first eating your other cultist or running away.

Option B) You choose to send away your monster to red's home base. (fine red can now at 0 cost re-summon his ghouls if you kill them in the next turn). Red captures your cultist this round and you loose a gate and there's an open one. Red sacrifices cultist for 11 power next round.

Based on both these options you are at best looking at 8 energy in round 3.... possibly 7, with everyone else at 11 or there abouts.

Anyway these are the second round appearance quandries that have to do with red deciding to go visit Cthulhu early. I may be a bit off on some of this, but it's what I seem to recall I'd worked out the dilema to be.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kyle S.
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Totally agree with your assessment. I think the safe play for Green is to summon Cthulhu when you have more than 2 gates. 3 is easy to get in the second round, but if you can pull off a 4th you are in a great position.

I have no experimented with early Dreams. In fact I've never used it. Dreams cost just as much as building your own gate while drawing a lot of aggro. But, on the other hand, it has reach, something Green really lacks until you get to late game submerge plays.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
shion smith
msg tools
I haven't found a very good use for dreams yet, I usually make it one of the last books I take. Devolve / Energy from ocean gates, seem to be where I go early in the game. Then submerge.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kyle S.
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
shion_ca wrote:
I haven't found a very good use for dreams yet, I usually make it one of the last books I take. Devolve / Energy from ocean gates, seem to be where I go early in the game. Then submerge.
I think Dreams is underused because the cost seems so prohibitive. But the more I think about it, it might be slightly more cost efficient than building your own gate straight up.

Move cultist + gate = 4 Power and you end up with a gate.

Move Monster + Dreams + Devolve (to make sure you have a cultist in reserve) = 4 Power and you end up with a gate and a free unit worth 1 power and you take away a gate from an enemy.

It's not a lot of efficiency, but any little bit helps right? Obviously capturing a cultist and gaining a gate that way is better, but that is a lot more difficult.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
shion smith
msg tools
Scenario above is under the assumption that they have built a gate one space from you I assume. Doing so, you can bet they have a monster on it. Devolve is 1, move is 1, dreams is 3... so that's 5 right?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Devolve is free, but you don't necessarily need to move in.

For instance, say after a battle with Blue, a Star Spawn is Pained into an area with a Red Cultist on a Gate, protected by a Ghoul. You can then use Dreams to: A) Remove a Cultist from Red B) Remove a Gate from Red C) Get a Cultist from your Pool D) Gain a gate

Dreams can be pretty amazing.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benjamin
msg tools
designer
mb
I disagree about GC having to keep CC in check. Setting turn-order so he doesn't go last is your main duty.

You should set yourself up to summon Cthulhu in turn 2 and efficiently submerge in turn 3.

Both YS and BG are in a far better situation to mess with CC if the player decides to go for suicidal 3rd gate on his first turn.
YS can simply walk over with KiY and nick some cultists if CC is so dominant a faction in the group or goes for 3 undefended gates.
BG on the other hand can really mess with CC.

CC Turns for 3 Gates vs BG:
1) CC - Move Cultist / BG - Sac 2 Cultists
2) CC - Build Gate / BG - Summon 1 Cultist
3) CC - Move Cultist / BG - Summon Ghoul or DY
4) CC - Build Gate / BG - 6 or 4 power left to mess with defenseless CC

Obviously depends on BG playing more efficiently than Shub in Turn 1.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kyle S.
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Inconmon wrote:
I disagree about GC having to keep CC in check. Setting turn-order so he doesn't go last is your main duty.

You should set yourself up to summon Cthulhu in turn 2 and efficiently submerge in turn 3.

Both YS and BG are in a far better situation to mess with CC if the player decides to go for suicidal 3rd gate on his first turn.
YS can simply walk over with KiY and nick some cultists if CC is so dominant a faction in the group or goes for 3 undefended gates.
BG on the other hand can really mess with CC.

CC Turns for 3 Gates vs BG:
1) CC - Move Cultist / BG - Sac 2 Cultists
2) CC - Build Gate / BG - Summon 1 Cultist
3) CC - Move Cultist / BG - Summon Ghoul or DY
4) CC - Build Gate / BG - 6 or 4 power left to mess with defenseless CC

Obviously depends on BG playing more efficiently than Shub in Turn 1.
Why would CC build a gate that close to BG if he is sacing 2 cultists for Red Sign to allow harrass? Why would BG choose an economic opening but waste that advantage by sacrificing next turns power base? You think BG won't build their 2nd gate?If BG starts the game with a Red Sign opening, he doesn't and shouldn't care at all if CC opens with 3 gates. BG will have enough power and defended gates in the mid-game to take his shots at CC during CC's weakness windows if need be with Avatar. There is no incentive at all for BG to harass CC early.

Yellow Sign would rather build his own 2nd gate in the opening round. Lets assume Yellow awakens the King in Scandinavia. If CC was dumb enough to build his 2nd gate, or position himself for a 3rd gate in North Asia or anywhere adjacent to the KiY, then thats a massive mistake on CC's part and he will loose that gate. That's why CC won't build a gate right next to KiY, and Yellow Sign will likely build their second gate to have the Option of Hastur in the 2nd round and get the Elder Sign engine running as early as possible.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benjamin S.
msg tools
I fundamentally disagree.

BG cares because he doesn't want CC to start with 12 power for GOO + Thousand Forms, while he doesn't need as much power himself. Same reason you take any chance you get to keep GC below 10 power - GC needs GOO out asap.
Worst case scenario he moves 2 spaces into CC home territory and captures 4 cultists. Puts BG to 12 power in turn 2 and CC to 7 with 4 missing cultists (efficiently 3 power).

BG:
8 power - sac 2 cultists
7 power - summon 1
6 power - summon ghoul
4 power - move x2
0 power - capture 4
5 cultists, 1 gate, 4 sacrifices, 1 unoccupied gate -- 12 power

CC:
2 cultists, 2 gates, 1 unoccupied gate -- 7 power

If CC plays a monster, then you can still go for normal opening or potentially prey on YS if he doesn't have Passion to prevent Hastur from showing up in turn 2 or 3.


While I agree that YS has potentially better options, I don't think Scandinavia is a great move. North Asia is a better place to summon KiY, right next to CC home gate. Why? Because you can shamelessly eat all his cultists. Delays Hastur to turn 3, but again fucks CC badly. If he doesn't summon GOO with his 10 power in turn 2, you can keep eating and harassing his cultists. If he goes for GOO he will most likely lose both his other gates. This would put him down to minimum power next turn with only 1 or 2 cultists in play.

My point is:
- BG has a brilliant opening move to fuck with strong CC players
- YS has a good opening move (summoning KiY in North Asia) that allows him to prevent three blue gates if needed
- GC should rather focus on setting himself up for a good turn 3 with Cthulhu out
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kyle S.
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Incon wrote:
I fundamentally disagree.

BG cares because he doesn't want CC to start with 12 power for GOO + Thousand Forms, while he doesn't need as much power himself. Same reason you take any chance you get to keep GC below 10 power - GC needs GOO out asap.
Worst case scenario he moves 2 spaces into CC home territory and captures 4 cultists. Puts BG to 12 power in turn 2 and CC to 7 with 4 missing cultists (efficiently 3 power).

BG:
8 power - sac 2 cultists
7 power - summon 1
6 power - summon ghoul
4 power - move x2
0 power - capture 4
5 cultists, 1 gate, 4 sacrifices, 1 unoccupied gate -- 12 power

CC:
2 cultists, 2 gates, 1 unoccupied gate -- 7 power

If CC plays a monster, then you can still go for normal opening or potentially prey on YS if he doesn't have Passion to prevent Hastur from showing up in turn 2 or 3.


While I agree that YS has potentially better options, I don't think Scandinavia is a great move. North Asia is a better place to summon KiY, right next to CC home gate. Why? Because you can shamelessly eat all his cultists. Delays Hastur to turn 3, but again fucks CC badly. If he doesn't summon GOO with his 10 power in turn 2, you can keep eating and harassing his cultists. If he goes for GOO he will most likely lose both his other gates. This would put him down to minimum power next turn with only 1 or 2 cultists in play.

My point is:
- BG has a brilliant opening move to fuck with strong CC players
- YS has a good opening move (summoning KiY in North Asia) that allows him to prevent three blue gates if needed
- GC should rather focus on setting himself up for a good turn 3 with Cthulhu out
Doesn't your argument hinge upon a scenario that has exactly 0% chance of ever happening against a halfway competent player? There is no way CC will ever let you capture a single cultist let alone 4.

Let's play your scenario out, I'll show you what I mean.

BG - Sac 2 cultists - 8 power
CC - move cultist - 7 power
BC - summon cultsits - 7 power
CC - build gate - 4 power
BG - summon ghoul - 6 power
CC - move cultist (showing a 3 gate opener. Your best case scenario) - 3 power
BG - move ghoul Arabia - 5 power

Pause here for a moment. If I'm CC, I know you have a ton of power left and a ghoul knocking on my door. Under exactly what set of circumstances would I ever think building my 3rd gate now and having 0 power left is a good idea in this case? Dude, never.

CC - Nightgaunt S.Asia - 2 power

Do you move your Ghoul to S.Asia now? No point since it gets you no where. So you go to Europe, try and cut your losses and try and get some cultists?

BG - move ghoul to Europe - 4 power

If Yellow took Passion (which they 100% should if opening with 2 gates and KiY), you are getting 1 cultist max before they summon a free undead there (which as the Yellow player I am totally not unhappy about). If there is no Passion, he probably didn't get a 2nd gate meaning you still only get 1 cultist maybe before KiY moves back to Europe right? If you happen to capture a cultist, you are down to 3 power and have no way to build a 2nd gate! You start the next round with 9 power now (6 cultists, 1 gate, 1 sacrifice), only 1 doom point, and you have made exactly little progress to set yourself up for a strong second round. For a faction that is totally based around Economic advantage, you have none of it to build off of. And best of all, CC is relatively unaffected by anything you did.

Maybe you don't move to Europe though after thinking this through (the above scenario isn't great for you is it?). Maybe you realize that you probably need a 2nd gate if you are now stonewalled out of effecting CC.

BG - Move Cultist Arabia - 4 power

This is your best move really, since the ghoul is also there to protect your lone cultist. So you build a gate and summon your 6th cultist with your last 4 power. Got you 10 power and 2 doompoints going into round 2. Much better outcome for your isn't it?

But you could have saved your Ghoul for a free summon later in the game as a stall turn (something I highly value when playing BG). You could have a Dark Young out and be taking advantage of Red Sign (why else would you sac 2 cultists at the start of the game unless to take Red Sign? Frenzy? But why?). The standard Red Sign opener is strictly better for BG than what has transpired here.

And lets be clear, if CC summons a nightgaunt instead of moving that 2nd cultist in this scenario, none of this is even a question and you really dont have the option of moving your Ghoul out of North Africa at all since you can and will be punished by CC for doing so. And this isn't even mentioning that I still contend that BG doesn't and shouldn't care if CC opens with 3 gates at all, so why open with a build that aims to prevent a scenario that means nothing to you in that stage of the game?


So I 100% disagree with your asessment that BG has brilliant opening moves to harass CC. Honestly, It's moves like this that are responsible for BG not winning games and needing a small buff.

-----

YS might have an easier time hitting CC and spend all his power doing Zingya and capturing. But YS is just delaying his Elder Sign generation by at least a round or 2, which will make it hard for him to catch up and win against a well played GC or BG who are going about their business content that YS and CC are killing themselves in that conflict.

Even if YS comes out ahead just pummeling CC like that, CC will likely be butthurt enough to tank his entire game just to make sure the YS has no chance of winning after a move like that. I think this social aspect can't be dismissed as the most likely outcome. Can YS do this and still pull off a win? Highly unlikely
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benjamin S.
msg tools
Doesn't compute.

You assume that Cthulhu (who you suggest should not setup his best possible start just to deter CC from building 2 gates) would make CC go after BG, giving CC an additional advantage.

Just re-read what I wrote before:

Quote:
CC Turns for 3 Gates vs BG:
1) CC - Move Cultist / BG - Sac 2 Cultists
2) CC - Build Gate / BG - Summon 1 Cultist
3) CC - Move Cultist / BG - Summon Ghoul or DY
4) CC - Build Gate / BG - 6 or 4 power left to mess with defenseless CC
By the time BG summons his Ghoul, CC already moved a cultist and has the decision to make to now build the gate or not.
You can even take it one further when you see CC go for the second gate:

CC Turns for 3 Gates vs BG:
1) CC - Move Cultist / BG - Sac 2 Cultists
2) CC - Build Gate / BG - Summon 1 Cultist
3) CC - Move Cultist / BG - Summon 1 Cultist
4) CC - Build Gate / BG - 6 power left

That's still enough to simply walk over and take 3 cultists.

The whole point is that with sacrifice and re-recruit BG can delay enough for CC to commit. Once commited, CC with 2 additional gates is simply fucked.
On the other end the risk for BG is non-existent. Worst case scenario you end up with 2 gates as always.

That YS can be a victim IF it doesn't go for passion is just an added bonus. Even with passion YS has a choice of either re-summoning Cultists at the second Gate (Hastur in turn 2) or summoning an Undead (no Hastur in turn 2). That's down to the group and how YS plays. (Similar how a CC player acting "butthurt" and "tanking his game" instead of still trying to win is down to the group. Players that don't play to win and go Kingmaker can ruin most games, CW or not.)


Note that I think the main disagreement comes from how we see BG. You assume that BG needs some grand opening move and build advantages, while the main task for BG is in my experience to not appear dangerous and intentionally get less points than you could so you don't get ganged up on. BG is my most played faction by far (more than the other 3 factions together) and I basically always won with BG (I did lose my first ever game in CW as BG).

The opening is great, because it has no risks for you. Worst case you end up with a standard opening. On the other hand it prevents CC from going for it's best possible start (12 power / 3 gates) by having to summon at least 1 night gaunt.
As bonus you can severely punish YS if they go for anything but a standard opening with Passion.


And to bring this back to the original topic:
GC should not waste power trying to prevent a potential opening move of CC. BG can do so much more efficiently.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   |