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Star Wars: Armada» Forums » Variants

Subject: Babylon 5 Armada rss

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Brian Wright
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So I still have loads of fleet action scale b5 minis floating around and no recent game to use them with. I'm thinking of trying to convert the Babylon 5 wars rules by AoG to the armada system. Seems like it would largely work. Elint rules would have to be made but might be able to be boiled down to the command dials. The other big thing is the ability to turn off the direction of travel. That was really important with some ships. I thought about doing it with the xwing flight path system, but this looks closer. Anyone interested in this?
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Todd Warnken
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Sounds like a fun project. I'm interested in seeing what you come up with.
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Michael Arnold
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I had the same idea Brian. Come join us here.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/367553396773403/

They are a bit small but I have all the 4 major races, Vorlons, Shadows, plus some Turning Point minis that I plan on converting.
 
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Brian Wright
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I think I'm going to start with centauri and earth alliance. They are two core races and I know them reasonably well. I was primarily a centauri player back in the B5W days.

If anyone wants to take a look at the source material
http://b5warsvault.wikidot.com/

Core ships of the Centauri fleet
Covran Scout
Razik fighter (A wing type profile)
Centurion Attack Cruiser (I'm imagining this maybe a bit like the nebulon B)
Vorchan Warship
Primus battlecruiser (Maybe along the lines of the VSD)
Octurion Battleship (ISD equivilant)

Earth Alliance core ships
Star Fury (Probably x wing ish, but less anti ship.)
Hyperion (nebulon b ish?)
Omega (VSD ish?)
Nova (ISD?)
Tethys
Olympus

(Know EA less well, but I think those are the main ones)


 
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Brian Wright
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Mike1975 wrote:
I had the same idea Brian. Come join us here.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/367553396773403/

They are a bit small but I have all the 4 major races, Vorlons, Shadows, plus some Turning Point minis that I plan on converting.


I have Centauri, vorlon, shadows, ancients, and Dilgar. I think between my gaming group we own just about every model. One of the guys in our group knows the AoG guys personally and got a ton of stuff when they lost the license. Did some playtesting for AoG back in the day.
 
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Todd Warnken
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The Omega is more powerful than the Nova.
 
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Brian Wright
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Thoughts on movement conversion-

B5 ships don't really have a top speed. They just have a speed at which they are effective. This is based mostly on engine size relative to the turn cost of the ship. We'll start with the assumption that your speed ratings mean you can take two turns (which seems average for released cards) 3 hexes=one speed is the assumption that I'll start with. Its also handy in that it divides the 12 hex preprinted costs nicely and looks to be about the same distance as the ruler on the tabletop.

Next up is how many turns at what speed. I'm going to go largely with turn delay here. Take the b5 speed and divide by turn delay and you'll get the total clicks you should be able to make. Round up. Put and extra clicks at the end.

A Centurion would looks something like this.


It has 12 thrust. At 9 speed its cost is 6, so speed 3. At 3 speed its delay is 2. Two clicks. At speed 6 its delay is 3. Two clicks. At speed 9 its delay is 5. Two clicks.

If you're a long time b5w player you'll probably notice I'm not accounting for Power converted to thrust or thruster size. That'll be command dial stuff.
 
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Michael Arnold
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On the facebook page recently we had talked about replacing shields with an Armor mechanic to provide some balance compared to SW.
 
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Michael Arnold
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I know Bruce and all fairly well, but not in person. I helped playtest the Turning Points game a long while back before they closed doors.
 
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Brian Wright
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I saw that. FB just isn't very conductive to in depth discussions. There will have to be armor instead of shields for sure. Probably just have to average the armor for each area and use the shield dials to show it. Instead of transferring shield, you could have that action roll the ship. That would transfer damage from left to right.
 
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Michael Ptak
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You don't see Omegas typically rolling though...

Just a thought, but maybe something like armor values decrease the incoming damage by X amount? You could add another standard critical resolution effect by reducing that section's armor by Y, where Y is the number of critical results.
 
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Brian Wright
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Norsehound wrote:
You don't see Omegas typically rolling though...

Just a thought, but maybe something like armor values decrease the incoming damage by X amount? You could add another standard critical resolution effect by reducing that section's armor by Y, where Y is the number of critical results.


B5W was a lot about distributing damage. Some ships roll more than others, but its the only method I could think of that would be like shield transfer.

First thought on armor is that it changes accuracy or critical results. Armor degrades accuracy to crit and crits to normal damage. That's make armor effective without completely neutering low dice ships.
 
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Michael Arnold
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Have Armor Negates Accuracy if at 2+
Armor Negates Crits at 1+

You start with X Armor and every time it is penetrated and the ship takes damage reduce armor in facing section by 1. Kinda like ablating armor.

So if you have a Primus or other larger cruiser start with Armor 3 Front.....

First attack....if it takes 3-4 hits front reduce the armor by 1 but ship does not take damage.

Next attack....if the ship is hit next time by an Accuracy and 3 hits, it takes 1 point and reduces armor to 1 and the accuracy is negated.

Next attack....if the ship is hit by 2 hits and a crit and one accuracy then the crit counts only as one hit so the this will have 3 hits and one accuracy. The armor will negate one of the three hits.

something like this?
 
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Brian Wright
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Mike1975 wrote:
Have Armor Negates Accuracy if at 2+
Armor Negates Crits at 1+

You start with X Armor and every time it is penetrated and the ship takes damage reduce armor in facing section by 1. Kinda like ablating armor.

So if you have a Primus or other larger cruiser start with Armor 3 Front.....

First attack....if it takes 3-4 hits front reduce the armor by 1 but ship does not take damage.

Next attack....if the ship is hit next time by an Accuracy and 3 hits, it takes 1 point and reduces armor to 1 and the accuracy is negated.

Next attack....if the ship is hit by 2 hits and a crit and one accuracy then the crit counts only as one hit so the this will have 3 hits and one accuracy. The armor will negate one of the three hits.

something like this?


Armor in b5w was specifically not ablative. If we're trying to stay true to that system (which I consider the definitive version). Straight up canceling hits for each volley would probably be the 'correct' version. However that seems really punishing, which is why I suggested downgrading accuracy and crits. IIRC there are weapon systems that will degrade armor (plasma I think) I think its something we need to sit down and roll out some test engagements once we have a few ships ready to go otherwise.

I was thinking if you have say 3 armor and your opponent rolls accuracy, 3 hits and a crit the result would be a crit and 3 hits. Accuracy goes to crit. Crit to hit and one hit get dropped. However killing accuracy may be a big deal.. I'm not sure.
 
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Michael Arnold
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I understand completely but a constant 3 armor, having played Armada, would be way too powerful. Hence that change.
 
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OMG, this sounds amazing. B5 is still my all-time favorite sci-fi show, so this looks EPICALLY cool.
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Mike McDonald
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May I present a counter-proposal to the armor and roll ship ideas?

Throughout the space battles in B5 a lot of the ships would stop incoming fire with counter-battery fire. There were also reference to fighters stripping the defences of capital ships. Why not maintain shields exactly as they are in Armada and rename them as Defense Batteries or Point Defense? This was you can still keep the repairing mechanic as well as some of those heroic engineers get some of the Point Defense back online?

Just my two cents.

And you should always abandon ship as soon as Sheridan offers to help you. Quickly, you only have a few seconds before you explode.
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Michael Arnold
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Great idea on the point defense. Maybe some PD plus armor of 1 for Small/Medium ships, maybe 2 for big ships but that it does not drop with hits. Then Shields of 1 at most for some races plus point defense. PD allows the unit to cause re-rolls on X dice per turn. So if multiple ships attack you can get overwhelmed. PD can also be swapped for a SINGLE Anti-Fighter attack with a die?
 
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Brian Wright
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Yes, PD makes sense thematically and is something that can be degraded Even ships with high armor tended to lose weapons on the side that was being blasted.

So shield = PD but cause rerolls instead of direct damage reduction. I'd also say that engineering should have a roll ship cost to flip the right and left PD markers. Its a move I did all the time in b5w.

Armor = straight damage canceling. Probably a max of 2. Does not reduce with fire. Cancels damage before crits.

I'll have to look at how to generate PD stats. Usually you used secondary weapons for PD instead of specific systems (and PD only worked on certain weapon systems FWIW) PD is something that should add to your anti-fighter attack, but if you're using it for anti-fighter work, you're not using it for PD.

Let take a look at the twin array since I have it in front of me right now. On a d20 it gives -2 per shot with a rof of 2. For -4 per array. EA PD is -3 per mount for their dedicated systems.

I'm thinking that maybe PD will be 1 reroll per -2. Units that cover multiple arcs will have to have that split between arcs (IE the centurion has that covers f/r/a and -8 f/l/a You might give it 3f/2r/2l/1a. Engineering maybe can shuffle the max value over to another arc. PD points can be used to re-roll an attack die of your choice, shoot at fighters, or make a range 1 attack at capital ships. They would reset when that ship is activated. I like the idea of rolling resets when possible as it'll give some interesting tactical choice of which ship you want to activate first I think. Do you blow your PD wad on a range 1 attack knowing that side will be open to fire until its next activation, etc.
 
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Brian Wright
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Hull Values-
So in b5w you needed to destroy the primary structure or CC to kill the ship. This usually was done by going through at least one side and primary. The number and size of auxiliary systems could have a large effect on how much damage a ship could soak up.

I figure taking the hull and about 50% of the structure of the auxiliary system gives a pretty fair hull value. You can use the detailed hit charts for precise conversion. There was direct primary damage, but I'll say the crits on dice cover that. Id say an average game would see 1.5-2 hull sections + primary destroyed before a ship was dead.

I'm looking at a primus BC right now which should compare fairly closely with a VSD. Figure the VSD is probably a BC or weak BB at best. Primus is a solid BC.

(50% aux)
Front hull 42, 44 aux = 64
side hulls 56, 39 aux = 75.5
rear hull 40, 57 aux = 68.5
Average outer hull = 70.875
primary 40, 94 aux = 87

157.875 with a 1x hull
193.3125 1.5x
228.75 2x

Raw d20 values. Now lets convert that to a hull value.
Lets say we want to target hull 7.

1x conversion would be 22.55
1.5x 27.62
2x 32.68

With those numbers I'm leaning towards a 1.75x side hulls and 30 conversion value. That's still get us to 7 on the Primus, which I think is probably the right spot for it.


That sound about right on what it takes to kill a ship?
 
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Michael Arnold
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I'd go with something like a PD value for each arc. That PD would be a max of 4 or 5 for the biggest ships. So 1 per 2 Smaller Turrets and a boost for the heavier turrets like the heavy PD on some ships like the Secundus. For the Omega for example.
Front = 3 PD
2 for some of the smaller Particle Cannons Firing Fore and 1 for the Interceptors

Sides = 4 PD
3 for the Light Particle Cannons (6 per side) plus 1 for Interceptors.

Rear = 2 PD
Interceptors plus some Light Particle Cannons.

Armor 2 Front and 1 all the rest.

Primus
Fore and Side = 2 PD
Rear = 1 PD

Armor 2 for all sides

A direct translation from B5Wars may not make sense for some ships....
 
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Brian Wright
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Yah, I'm just trying to setup a way to extract base performance numbers. If PD is a once per round thing I'm not super worried about some large numbers as you can overwhelm a ship.

The primus example is really low though. It can throw -16 just on the twins in the fore section. Another -8 on each side. 6f/4s/2a would be the most likely conversion.

The omega has -8 in the fore and -16 on the sides, -8 in the rear. 4f/8s/4a sound like a lot, but its not per attack and would be divided between PD, anti-fighter and anti-ship work.

Easy enough to run a couple mock battles and see how it works out and tweak the formula. Both are pretty big ships though. They should have enough PD to throw some at a couple attacks. However if you want to treat it as a VS every attack thing of course they would need to be much lower.
 
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Michael Arnold
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Keep in mind 2 things....not all PD was effective against all weapons.....plus also one cannot properly split the arcs like that. The Primus has 4 dual turrets but remember that they cover multiple arcs too so using the full amount in each arc is a bit much. They also have to balance out with other ships in Armada. I think the hull is pretty close though.
 
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Brian Wright
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Mike1975 wrote:
Keep in mind 2 things....not all PD was effective against all weapons.....plus also one cannot properly split the arcs like that. The Primus has 4 dual turrets but remember that they cover multiple arcs too so using the full amount in each arc is a bit much. They also have to balance out with other ships in Armada. I think the hull is pretty close though.


I'm not actually using the full amount in any. It actually has 8 twins mounts to cover the whole ship. 6f/4s/2a is just a guess. With the arcs it could have 12 dice in front arc. 8 on either side or aft. Its really flexible. The number I used isn't doubling any of them up. Same with the omega numbers.

I guess the real question is how many dice should you be able to reroll? VSD is rolling 6, upto 7 dice. Primus is a pretty heavy intercept ship. Just keep in mind that I'm suggesting those dice are also anti fighter dice and black dice for attack (range 1). Primus parks nose to nose with the VSD it can choose to make it reroll every die or it can choose to hit back with 6 extra black dice. If you make declaring PD before a roll you end up with some overkill sometimes instead of only picking hits. Primus has 4 battle lasers though. Would probably be all red dice for them with 4f/4p/4s/0a

vs a VSD this would make it better at range, suffer at mid range at short range it'd be equalish. If you get the 2 blacks for equal dice you'd be left 4f/2p/2s/0a. It would just have a choice to make if it wanted to force rerolls or try and shrug off the hits and try and punch back of course all the b5 ships are going to have more swing with that mechanic. Also not having those dice refresh until next activation will make focus fire effective vs ships that try and turtle. Most likely you're throwing out a few dice here and there. If you only get a couple dice it would be incredibly easy to blow all your dice.
 
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Michael Arnold
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Using the same as Anti-Fighter dice will be way overpowered too. Then you could use 4 dice and level a single squadron......that's a bit much too. I'd consider hard what a VSD can do in comparison since they are close in size. The primus has better long range firepower but equating one turret to one turret the VSD has 8 turbolaser batteries which cannot intercept but have longer range and a bit more damage in comparison to the Primus. Remember however this is done some balance needs to be kept or any fun doing a crossover may be sucked out of things.
 
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