GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters at year's end: 1000!
9,184 Supporters
$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
18 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
76 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: Bradley Manning is not a woman... rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Trey Stone
United States
Texarkana
Texas
flag msg tools
May the bikini be with you!
badge
I destroy SJWs!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
He is a very confused young man.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/356501/bradley-manning...

Quote:

We have created a rhetoric of “gender identity” that is disconnected from biological sexual fact, and we have done so largely in the service of enabling the sexual mutilation of physically healthy men and women (significantly more men) by medical authorities who should be barred by professional convention if not by conscience from the removal of healthy organs (and limbs, more on that later), an act that by any reasonable standard ought to be considered mutilation rather than therapy. This is not to discount the feelings of people who suffer from gender-identity disorders — to the contrary, those feelings must be taken into account in determining courses of treatment for people who have severe personality disorders. But those subjective experiences do not render inconsequential the biological facts: A man who believes he is a woman trapped in a man’s body, no matter the intensity of his feeling, is no such thing. The duty of the medical profession is not to encourage and enable delusions, but to help those who suffer from them to cope with them. It is worth noting here that as a matter of law and a matter of social expectation, the fiction of sex change is treated as the paramount good: We are not expected to treat those who have undergone the procedure as men who have taken surgical and hormonal steps to impersonate women (or vice versa) but as people who have literally changed sex, which they have not — no more than Dennis Avner, the famous “Stalking Cat” who attempted to physically transform himself into a tiger, changed species.


Quote:


The Aggressive Research Intelligence Facility, which advises the NHS on the effectiveness of treatments, conducted a broad review of the research literature and “found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective,” according to the Guardian, the liberal newspaper that commissioned the review. A study by the scholarly journal BJUI (formerly the British Journal of Urology) found that some 24 percent of those who undergo reassignment reported that they were unhappy with the cosmetic results, and 20 percent reported that they were in general dissatisfied with the procedure. Those numbers would be high for nose jobs or breast implants; they are sobering for a course of therapy that involves elective amputations.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Rogers
United States
Hoboken
New Jersey
flag msg tools
designer
badge
They're Young, They're in Love... They eat LARD
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ok. You posted an opinion piece that has nothing to do with Manning, beyond including his name. You find him to be confused, ok.

Did you want to discussing gender reassignment surgery, genital mutilation, body dismorphia, Manning or the govt.?
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Stone
United States
Texarkana
Texas
flag msg tools
May the bikini be with you!
badge
I destroy SJWs!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
epilgrim wrote:
Ok. You posted an opinion piece that has nothing to do with Manning, beyond including his name. You find him to be confused, ok.

Did you want to discussing gender reassignment surgery, genital mutilation, body dismorphia, Manning or the govt.?


I don't find him confused. The person who wrote the piece does. How you want to take the story, up to you.

If you think this stuff is stuff and nonsense (I do, tragically so), all right. If you think that this is some kind of cultural/social revolution...well, you apparently aren't the only one.

Either way.

However you want to discuss the opinion piece...if you want to discuss it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Rogers
United States
Hoboken
New Jersey
flag msg tools
designer
badge
They're Young, They're in Love... They eat LARD
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tstone wrote:
He is a very confused young man.

Your OP opens with this statement. Your response opposes it. Confusion?
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Stone
United States
Texarkana
Texas
flag msg tools
May the bikini be with you!
badge
I destroy SJWs!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
epilgrim wrote:
tstone wrote:
He is a very confused young man.

Your OP opens with this statement. Your response opposes it. Confusion?


I think he is confused, but so does the writer, and as I said before, this is about what he wrote. You are free to agree or disagree.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Leighton
England
Peterborough
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tstone wrote:
He is a very confused young man.

tstone wrote:
I don't find him confused.

tstone wrote:
I think he is confused


Now I am confused. What exactly do you think?
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hello Goodbye
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
tstone wrote:
He is a very confused young man.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/356501/bradley-manning...

Quote:

We have created a rhetoric of “gender identity” that is disconnected from biological sexual fact, and we have done so largely in the service of enabling the sexual mutilation of physically healthy men and women (significantly more men) by medical authorities who should be barred by professional convention if not by conscience from the removal of healthy organs (and limbs, more on that later), an act that by any reasonable standard ought to be considered mutilation rather than therapy. This is not to discount the feelings of people who suffer from gender-identity disorders — to the contrary, those feelings must be taken into account in determining courses of treatment for people who have severe personality disorders. But those subjective experiences do not render inconsequential the biological facts: A man who believes he is a woman trapped in a man’s body, no matter the intensity of his feeling, is no such thing. The duty of the medical profession is not to encourage and enable delusions, but to help those who suffer from them to cope with them. It is worth noting here that as a matter of law and a matter of social expectation, the fiction of sex change is treated as the paramount good: We are not expected to treat those who have undergone the procedure as men who have taken surgical and hormonal steps to impersonate women (or vice versa) but as people who have literally changed sex, which they have not — no more than Dennis Avner, the famous “Stalking Cat” who attempted to physically transform himself into a tiger, changed species.


Quote:


The Aggressive Research Intelligence Facility, which advises the NHS on the effectiveness of treatments, conducted a broad review of the research literature and “found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective,” according to the Guardian, the liberal newspaper that commissioned the review. A study by the scholarly journal BJUI (formerly the British Journal of Urology) found that some 24 percent of those who undergo reassignment reported that they were unhappy with the cosmetic results, and 20 percent reported that they were in general dissatisfied with the procedure. Those numbers would be high for nose jobs or breast implants; they are sobering for a course of therapy that involves elective amputations.


Absolutely, he's trying every trick in the book to get sympathy. He is a traitor and should be treated as such.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Stone
United States
Texarkana
Texas
flag msg tools
May the bikini be with you!
badge
I destroy SJWs!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
andyl wrote:
tstone wrote:
He is a very confused young man.

tstone wrote:
I don't find him confused.

tstone wrote:
I think he is confused


Now I am confused. What exactly do you think?


As I said, I do find him confused. But this is not about my opinion, this is about the piece. Do you want to talk about the piece? Or do you want another round of back and forth gotcha. Because Lord knows that does not happen enough around here.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorge Montero
United States
St Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
I'll take Manhattan in a garbage bag. With Latin written on it that says "It's hard to give a shit these days"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Next up, linking to an article about how women belong in the kitchen, and then saying that it's just what the article writer said.

We call that 'Throwing the rock and hiding your hand'

If you do not show a semblance of dislike of a post you link, and it goes well in the lines of your rather despicable posting history, guess what? People will think you agree with the article.

(Blah blah you do not care about what people think, and yet you still post your drivel here anyway)
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Stone
United States
Texarkana
Texas
flag msg tools
May the bikini be with you!
badge
I destroy SJWs!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
hibikir wrote:
Next up, linking to an article about how women belong in the kitchen, and then saying that it's just what the article writer said.


Yes, because this issue is JUST like that one.

Quote:
I don't like you and wish you would go away!


I do agree with the article, but my agreement is not the point.

Making this about me rather than the topic. Ah, RSP douchebaggery, it rides on shoulders of giants like you.


As for me not caring...I post the stuff I post hoping for decent conversation or points made, pro or con. What makes it worthwhile is that sometimes I get it.

Also, the predictable bleating from the usual suspects is good for lulz. On that score, sir, I thank you.

Now, ready to address the topic? Or is that the best you can do?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bimmy Jim
Canada
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think he's just smart:

"Oh what's that? I'm going to prison with a bunch of men? Nonono you don't get it! I'm actually a woman!"

Heh... now I have a plan for if I ever get sent to jail... I'll just claim I'm actually a women, have a sex change operation, and live in paradise.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Stone
United States
Texarkana
Texas
flag msg tools
May the bikini be with you!
badge
I destroy SJWs!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BimmyJim wrote:
I think he's just smart:

"Oh what's that? I'm going to prison with a bunch of men? Nonono you don't get it! I'm actually a woman!"

Heh... now I have a plan for if I ever get sent to jail... I'll just claim I'm actually a women, have a sex change operation, and live in paradise.


Metagaming. Interesting point there, Jim.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Belgium
flag msg tools
Meaningless means there's a strong limit to how much I can mess up!
badge
This overtext is not in use.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The first quote you brought out compares transgenderism to people like the cat person. Even if you ultimately think they are similar, the former has far more basis in biological fact than the other. Studies of transgendered people do show that their brain chemistry tends to fit with the patterns of the gender they believe to be

(Of course, if the brain is only a receiver, then there seems to be even more reason to believe transgenderism is 'real'.)

The second ignores the important question. It's no surprise that many transgendered people are unhappy with the results of the surgery. It's a developing technology and very far from perfect. The question to look at for the point trying to be made is whether they would have been happier without the procedure.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Stone
United States
Texarkana
Texas
flag msg tools
May the bikini be with you!
badge
I destroy SJWs!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dolphinandrew wrote:
The first quote you brought out compares transgenderism to people like the cat person. Even if you ultimately think they are similar, the former has far more basis in biological fact than the other. Studies of transgendered people do show that their brain chemistry tends to fit with the patterns of the gender they believe to be

(Of course, if the brain is only a receiver, then there seems to be even more reason to believe transgenderism is 'real'.)


Not necessarily, as just because a damaged radio is still making sound, doesn't mean that it is not passing through damaged gear and the sound you are getting is the best.

Quote:

The second ignores the important question. It's no surprise that many transgendered people are unhappy with the results of the surgery. It's a developing technology and very far from perfect. The question to look at for the point trying to be made is whether they would have been happier without the procedure.


That is the question indeed, but what seems to be propelling this forward is not sound science or medicine or the concern for the same. Rather, it seems to be politics. And these hurting people being used as fodder for social "progress", is selfishness on a reprehensible level.

The body can malfuunction in all kinds of ways, including its chemistry. Mental delusions can be chemically based. To someone whose delusions make them think they are Napoleon, you give them therapy. A man who thinks he is a woman...you start cutting bits off, according to some.

And when someone stops, raises a finger of caution, a loud segment wants to shout them down.

That is not how you get to the truth on anything.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Belgium
flag msg tools
Meaningless means there's a strong limit to how much I can mess up!
badge
This overtext is not in use.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tstone wrote:
Not necessarily, as just because a damaged radio is still making sound, doesn't mean that it is not passing through damaged gear and the sound you are getting is the best.


Not necessarily, no. But the biological differences are there, which was my main point, and a point of disagreement with the article. There's no reason to think these differences in the brain are similar to differences in the brain that might make someone think they are Napoleon.

If you'd rather discuss this other point of yours, rather than the article, then I don't know what your 'not necessarily' means. My point was that there seems to be more reason to believe that there can be a real distinction between biological gender and real gender if one believes that the brain is just a receiver. This is simply because there is an extra component to what makes a person that person.

Of course, it's not the case that someone who believes that the brain is simply a receiver necessarily must believe that transgenderism is more real, but as an idea it certainly allows for it more than otherwise.


tstone wrote:
That is the question indeed, but what seems to be propelling this forward is not sound science or medicine or the concern for the same. Rather, it seems to be politics.


I don't see any reason to think politics is driving anyone to get gender-reassignment surgery. I've known only a couple of transgender people, and they mostly only cared about the politics of the issue as much as it affected them (which is of course more than most people).

And sure, mental delusions can be chemically based. There's no reason to think this is what is happening here. And given how much therapy and work someone has to go through to get gender reassignment surgery, I don't think it has much to do with the politics either.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jasper
Netherlands
Leiden
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tstone wrote:
That is the question indeed, but what seems to be propelling this forward is not sound science or medicine or the concern for the same. Rather, it seems to be politics. And these hurting people being used as fodder for social "progress", is selfishness on a reprehensible level.
These people do have their own agency and responsibility. They are NOT unwitting cogs in the great progressive machination.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Stone
United States
Texarkana
Texas
flag msg tools
May the bikini be with you!
badge
I destroy SJWs!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dolphinandrew wrote:


Not necessarily, no. But the biological differences are there, which was my main point, and a point of disagreement with the article. There's no reason to think these differences in the brain are similar to differences in the brain that might make someone think they are Napoleon.


But, likewise, there is something abberant going on. And it seems to me that the push to solve it in this way is propelled less by science and more by politics and social pressure.

Which is a problem.


tstone wrote:


I don't see any reason to think politics is driving anyone to get gender-reassignment surgery. I've known only a couple of transgender people, and they mostly only cared about the politics of the issue as much as it affected them (which is of course more than most people).


You bring up this topic anywhere, including here, and question the "gender reassignment" approach as wrong headed, the response you get tells you all you need to know about the political/sociological investment in this.

This is seen by many as part of a "social revolution" and another, needed blow to an "old order" they despise.

They could actually not care less about the individuals any more than they are just more pawns in the larger culture war.

Which is why, when you get a person like Bruce Jenner who would normally be a poster boy for this stuff, who has expressed strong sympathies for Republican points of view, becomes a pariah to them.


Quote:

And sure, mental delusions can be chemically based. There's no reason to think this is what is happening here.


Didn't you just say that chemistry played a role in this? What science do you have to conclude this is not a delusion then? You say x matches chemistry in y gender, but it is clearly in the wrong body. A malfunction is going on. I have yet to see any real science to strongly conclude that butchering a healthy human body is the solution.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Stone
United States
Texarkana
Texas
flag msg tools
May the bikini be with you!
badge
I destroy SJWs!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Venga2 wrote:
tstone wrote:
That is the question indeed, but what seems to be propelling this forward is not sound science or medicine or the concern for the same. Rather, it seems to be politics. And these hurting people being used as fodder for social "progress", is selfishness on a reprehensible level.
These people do have their own agency and responsibility. They are NOT unwitting cogs in the great progressive machination.


You are right. But still the actions of said "great progressive machine" should be noted.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jasper
Netherlands
Leiden
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tstone wrote:
Venga2 wrote:
tstone wrote:
That is the question indeed, but what seems to be propelling this forward is not sound science or medicine or the concern for the same. Rather, it seems to be politics. And these hurting people being used as fodder for social "progress", is selfishness on a reprehensible level.
These people do have their own agency and responsibility. They are NOT unwitting cogs in the great progressive machination.


You are right. But still the actions of said "great progressive machine" should be noted.
The actions of WHAT now? You are projecting a unity of thought and action that is just not there, methinks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jeremy cobert
United States
cedar rapids
Iowa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi_Regis wrote:
Absolutely, he's trying every trick in the book to get sympathy. He is a traitor and should be treated as such.


A traitor to whom ? She exposed war crimes and gave that information to the American people.

Meanwhile General Patraeus is divulging classified secrets to his mistress and gets probation.

Manning was a traitor to the elite establishment but she was a hero to the people.

And yes, I said She. If she wants to be a woman, good. I would tell her the same thing I used to tell my friends whenever they would point out some dude that we knew came out as gay.

My first response was always " he's gay ? good, more pussy for me".
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Stone
United States
Texarkana
Texas
flag msg tools
May the bikini be with you!
badge
I destroy SJWs!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Venga2 wrote:

The actions of WHAT now? You are projecting a unity of thought and action that is just not there, methinks.


Your term, not mine. As for "unity of thought and action", RSP and its hive mind makes a nice little microcosm of this thing you deny exists.

It will be interesting to watch this thread unfold.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Belgium
flag msg tools
Meaningless means there's a strong limit to how much I can mess up!
badge
This overtext is not in use.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tstone wrote:
But, likewise, there is something abberant going on. And it seems to me that the push to solve it in this way is propelled less by science and more by politics and social pressure.

Which is a problem.


If it were happening, then I'd agree. But it seems to me to be far more social pressure against gender reassignment surgery than for it. Politics-wise, I think the only pressures are in terms of how it's paid for, which again I'd say are overall negative towards getting the surgery.


tstone wrote:
You bring up this topic anywhere, including here, and question the "gender reassignment" approach as wrong headed, the response you get tells you all you need to know about the political/sociological investment in this.


I haven't seen any posts like this anywhere, not even here. Could you link to some.


tstone wrote:
Didn't you just say that chemistry played a role in this? What science do you have to conclude this is not a delusion then? You say x matches chemistry in y gender, but it is clearly in the wrong body. A malfunction is going on. I have yet to see any real science to strongly conclude that butchering a healthy human body is the solution.


I didn't say chemistry played a role in this. I said that transgendered people's brains tend to show more similarities to how the brains of those of the gender they believe themselves to be. Delusions don't act the same way in the brain.

But this would be the wrong place to look to see if 'butchering' (and if you don't want this to be just social politics, I'd suggest dropping the emotive language for gender reassignment surgery. Naturally, it's up to you) is the correct course of treatment. The right place to look for that is to see if this course of treatment gets better results than others.

Practically speaking, this is actually done already, albiet on a case by case basis. Most countries that have gender reassignment surgeries will directly check if other treatments are a better idea by making taking those treatments first a precondition of being accepted for gender reassignment surgery.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Leighton
England
Peterborough
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dolphinandrew wrote:

tstone wrote:
That is the question indeed, but what seems to be propelling this forward is not sound science or medicine or the concern for the same. Rather, it seems to be politics.


I don't see any reason to think politics is driving anyone to get gender-reassignment surgery. I've known only a couple of transgender people, and they mostly only cared about the politics of the issue as much as it affected them (which is of course more than most people).


I think firstly tstone needs to give us a bit more detail.

Is it the surgery that he has a bee in his bonnet about, or is it that people who were born with male genitalia identify as female (and vice-versa)? A number of trans-women and trans-men do not have reassignment surgery.

I also think he makes an error in seeming to claim that this is a modern thing driven by the "progressive movement". Throughout history there have been people who identified as a different gender to their birth-sex. There are the hijra in India who have a very long existence and are mentioned in the Ramayana and Mahabharata.

What modernity, and more precisely the LGBT movement, has enabled is more visibility of trans people, which inexorably leads to more acceptance. Also modern science has advanced so we can change the hormonal balance and perform better reassignment surgery (where required).

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Italian Seismologist
United Kingdom
norwich
Norfolk
flag msg tools
badge
[The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was not convincing people he didn't exist, but convincing them that he was God.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jeremycobert wrote:
Hi_Regis wrote:
Absolutely, he's trying every trick in the book to get sympathy. He is a traitor and should be treated as such.


A traitor to whom ? She exposed war crimes and gave that information to the American people.

Meanwhile General Patraeus is divulging classified secrets to his mistress and gets probation.

Manning was a traitor to the elite establishment but she was a hero to the people.


pretty much sums up the situation.

i find it utterly bizarre that they were ever considered a traitor by any member of the public.

i wonder if the same people were being tortured by the american government and one of the soldiers spoke out against it (publicly) they would class that soldier as a traitor?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trey Stone
United States
Texarkana
Texas
flag msg tools
May the bikini be with you!
badge
I destroy SJWs!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dolphinandrew wrote:

I haven't seen any posts like this anywhere, not even here. Could you link to some.


Go find my last post that we talked about this kind of thing for the RSP version.


tstone wrote:

I didn't say chemistry played a role in this. I said that transgendered people's brains tend to show more similarities to how the brains of those of the gender they believe themselves to be. Delusions don't act the same way in the brain.


"Don't act the same" is a long way from this particular solution, especially considering its permanent effects.

Quote:

But this would be the wrong place to look to see if 'butchering' (and if you don't want this to be just social politics, I'd suggest dropping the emotive language for gender reassignment surgery. Naturally, it's up to you) is the correct course of treatment. The right place to look for that is to see if this course of treatment gets better results than others.


Well, we do have some numbers on that, as this article pointed out. So far, not good. And again, considering the permanent results, might be best to think of other approaches to this before plunging in.

The point is, is there are social politics providing pressure to this and the "science" seems to be at best a side issue.

But some of the science is thrown around to give the poltics a cloak of legitimacy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.