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Subject: This is what appeasement and apology gets you. rss

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Have I mentioned lately what a lying coward I think our current president is? No? Well, you already know what I think. But c'mon people, isn't this worthy of some RSP attention? Especially in light of the Libtards and the fawning media hailing his submission to Iran as somehow laudable?

Obama is a pussy and now we have warships protecting merchant ships from Iran, But the military is under orders to use certain neutral words so as to not incite our new found friends.

Sheesh.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/irans-seizure-...
 
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No, no, when I pointed out what started all this on FB the Enlightened Ones laughed at it and so it can't possibly matter.
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whac3 wrote:
No, no, when I pointed out what started all this on FB the Enlightened Ones laughed at it and so it can't possibly matter.


I didn't. Of course I paid attention in history class and back then we were actually taught , at length, about the run-up to WWII and how appeasement worked out so well for the world.

Annoying as you are, and you can be annoying on this subject, I've always agreed with you. They hate us. They want to kill us. I have no idea what makes anyone think otherwise. Fuck, they say it all the time.
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DWTripp wrote:
Have I mentioned lately what a lying coward I think our current president is? No? Well, you already know what I think. But c'mon people, isn't this worthy of some RSP attention? Especially in light of the Libtards and the fawning media hailing his submission to Iran as somehow laudable?

Obama is a pussy and now we have warships protecting merchant ships from Iran, But the military is under orders to use certain neutral words so as to not incite our new found friends.

Sheesh.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/irans-seizure-...


Because the Iranians never misbehaved before Obama and will certainly return to passivity when he is gone, right? Of course the serenity extant in Afghanistan and Iraq demonstrate what a more robust policy should yield.

This is nothing but a segment in the historical arc. China wants to have greater control of the Western Pacific. Iran wants greater control of the Middle East and its waters. Russia wants hegemony over it's old vassal states. We've shaken the stick at any power trying to intrude on the Americas.

This is just another step in the long dance and Obama is ultimately but a very temporary presence. Iranian behavior will galvanize the neo cons and marginalize the isolationists which they will perhaps regret.
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Who do you think you make arms control agreements with- your allies? No, you make them with states who possess weapons that are aimed either at you or your allies.

We made several arms control agreements with the Soviet Union, and gave up early on the concept of 'linkage'- linking Soviet behavior with arms control. Kissinger realized that that was never going to happen, and that the erection of a structure of agreements, no matter how individually flawed they might be, was the only way to provide a motive to the Soviets for wanting to continue to working with the United States.

I still see nothing that says that Iran is 'worse' of a nation to deal with than the Soviet Union or China ever was.

Darilian

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Diplomacy might be expensive and messy but it's a lot better than the alternative.
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BFoy wrote:
Diplomacy might be expensive and messy but it's a lot better than the alternative.


A totally meaningless comment. At least Les defended Obama by attempting to mitigate his significance across the great, expansive "arc of time".

If a bully keeps taking your lunch money and you end up adapting a policy of just paying the bully rather than risking confrontation that seems to be a much messier, much more expensive alternative.

The Iranian people appear to want what the West has to offer so it seems that the dangerous ones are merely the ones running the country. And their military. We'll see...
 
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DWTripp wrote:
If a bully keeps taking your lunch money and you end up adapting a policy of just paying the bully rather than risking confrontation that seems to be a much messier, much more expensive alternative.

What has Iran done to the U.S. that is akin to a bully stealing lunch money?
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DWTripp wrote:

If a bully keeps taking your lunch money and you end up adapting a policy of just paying the bully rather than risking confrontation that seems to be a much messier, much more expensive alternative.


More like Iran is a 5 year old throwing pebbles at my house and flipping me the bird. Sure he's a little bully, and sure I wouldn't mind kicking the shit out of him, but then I remember he's only 5. I'd just end up looking like an asshole if I did. So I offer him a lollipop and hope he pisses off for a while.
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jmilum wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
If a bully keeps taking your lunch money and you end up adapting a policy of just paying the bully rather than risking confrontation that seems to be a much messier, much more expensive alternative.

What has Iran done to the U.S. that is akin to a bully stealing lunch money?


It is quite ludicrous to imagine Iran pushing the US around as DWTripp keeps claiming. I suspect he has been drinking today as clearly he doesn't understand what he is saying.
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sfox wrote:
jmilum wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
If a bully keeps taking your lunch money and you end up adapting a policy of just paying the bully rather than risking confrontation that seems to be a much messier, much more expensive alternative.

What has Iran done to the U.S. that is akin to a bully stealing lunch money?


It is quite ludicrous to imagine Iran pushing the US around as DWTripp keeps claiming. I suspect he has been drinking today as clearly he doesn't understand what he is saying.


I think it's more just a typical conservative claim. The older I get the more I notice that conservatives always see things simplistically. It's always a black and white world or situation. And there's always an "obvious"/"common sense" solution to these complex century-old problems, which could be implemented if a favored candidate (from any party) was elected, or we just had "enough courage".

Here it's a president's perceived demeanor in Good Country A causes Evil Country B to go around beating up people. The common sense solution is to just beat up Country B and kill all their bad inhabitants.
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jmilum wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
If a bully keeps taking your lunch money and you end up adapting a policy of just paying the bully rather than risking confrontation that seems to be a much messier, much more expensive alternative.

What has Iran done to the U.S. that is akin to a bully stealing lunch money?


They put a repressive puppet ruler over us....no wait, that's backwards isn't it?
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DWTripp wrote:
BFoy wrote:
Diplomacy might be expensive and messy but it's a lot better than the alternative.


A totally meaningless comment.


It is a very general comment. The US has 3 options:

1. Do nothing and risk a nuclear war.
2. Convince Iran to stop developing nuclear weapons.
3. Attack Iran

No knowledgeable military expert is saying option 3 would be easy or cheap.
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BFoy wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
BFoy wrote:
Diplomacy might be expensive and messy but it's a lot better than the alternative.


A totally meaningless comment.


It is a very general comment. The US has 3 options:

1. Do nothing and risk a nuclear war.
2. Convince Iran to stop developing nuclear weapons.
3. Attack Iran

No knowledgeable military expert is saying option 3 would be easy or cheap.


The only people I know who seriously want option 3 are Texas oilmen- we're in the middle of an oil glut, with revenues from fracking going into the toilet. What we need right now to boost the Texas economy is a good old fashioned war in the MidEast, preferably where one of the parties involved might close off the Straights of Hormuz or set fire to some oilfields! Even Better- they use their connections with terrorist cells across the region to destabilize all of our oil producing allies ALSO!!

Man! The price of oil would skyrocket!!! Woo Hoo!!!!
That means Texas jobs! Fuck the rest of y'all- just make sure you don't buy no electric cars- that's UN-Texan *ahem*, UNAMERICAN.

All We Are Saying.......

......Is Give War A Chance!!!!!


Darilian
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BFoy wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
BFoy wrote:
Diplomacy might be expensive and messy but it's a lot better than the alternative.


A totally meaningless comment.


It is a very general comment. The US has 3 options:

1. Do nothing and risk a nuclear war.
2. Convince Iran to stop developing nuclear weapons.
3. Attack Iran

No knowledgeable military expert is saying option 3 would be easy or cheap.


You honestly can't think beyond this three, very black & white, simplistic options? I thought it was the conservatives who were supposed to be unsophisticated.

I can imagine a score of different approaches to a saber-rattling totalitarian regime that is publicly, on record, the leaders saying this: that America needs to be brought down and that Israel has to be destroyed and the Jews eliminated.

That's not an opinion, it's a fact. It's not a popular one, especially in the airy heights that liberals imagine they operate in. But you can go look at the videos, transcripts and articles any time.

We don't have to risk anything. nor do we have to attack them. We just have to stop asking them to play nice like some sort of weak sister. And there are many, many ways to accomplish that.
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Let's hear some concrete suggestions.
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Seeing Tripp has such a grasp of history, he will remember that America and Britain, back in the day before Britain lost all her power, illegally replaced a democratically elected leader with a Fascist monarch who had almost no legitimacy. Then we wrung our hands when he eventually fell and the democrats he had destroyed while we supported him did not get power.
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DWTripp wrote:
Have I mentioned lately what a lying coward I think our current president is? No?


Yes.

Quote:
Obama is a pussy and now we have warships protecting merchant ships from Iran


So to be a non-pussy he'd have to refuse to protect merchant ships?
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sbszine wrote:
Let's hear some concrete suggestions.


It should contain a good mix of varying particle sizes and be poured with enough water to make it workable, but not so much that it will be weakened when it dies. Once poured, it should be kept undisturbed if possible while it sets. For extra strength, particularly tensile strength, it can be poured over rebar.
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DWTripp wrote:
We don't have to risk anything. nor do we have to attack them. We just have to stop asking them to play nice like some sort of weak sister. And there are many, many ways to accomplish that.


Sounds like a diplomatic solution.

I just hope Kerry is listening to the people on his staff who know something. Without understanding the Iranian culture or politics, you can't have a good idea of what will work.

BTW, I am more worried about this than you are, since I'm at a potential ground zero. Hopefully you people in Idaho will nuke Iran out of existence if they ever do anything.
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RE: the OP.

Holy déjà vu, man, no kidding

It's like the 90s never happened?! I feel like... I've been here, before...
 
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DWTripp wrote:


We don't have to risk anything. nor do we have to attack them. We just have to stop asking them to play nice like some sort of weak sister. And there are many, many ways to accomplish that.


If the US walks away from the deal that we've got on the table with Iran and the P5 group, the sanctions regime that is in place now will totally collapse. Russia and China aren't about to continue sanctions against Iran if we collapse the talks and walk away from a deal that contains a lot of Iranian concessions.

If the sanctions stop, and there isn't ANY oversight of Iran's nuclear program, if they want a bomb, they will GET a bomb. Furthermore, the more we pressure them and making them the diplomatic assholes of the region irregardless of their power within that sphere of influence, the more we give them an INCENTIVE to want to have a nuclear weapon as deterrence against a US or Israeli 'decapitation' attack aimed at the leadership.

Which, in the long run, might not be such a bad thing. The big unasked question out there is this-

While I agree that Iran without a nuclear weapon is preferable to one WITH a nuclear weapon, is it really the end of the world if they did, in fact, get one? Israel's nuclear force (at approximately 200 weapons) is way sufficient to ensure that any nuclear strike by Iran would be me by the complete obliteration of Iran as a nation. In other words- deterrence.

The United States has recklessly prevented the world community from investigating and putting controls on Israel's arsenal- should we really be so surprised that Iran wants nuclear weapons as well?

The trick is to play this off for as much as we can get. Iran wants to be a respected and recognized power player in the Gulf region, and is willing to have controls put on their nuclear program in exchange. We don't want to see Iran get nuclear weapons.

Despite the incredible amount of distrust on both sides, there is room for mutual advantage here. This isn't the President being a 'pussy'- rather, its shrewd power politics.

What Israel doesn't like is the fact that if Iran gets nuclear weapons, this could lead to a runaway arms race with the Iranians that they really can't afford right now- that, and the latitude that being the only regional player with nukes gives them. But is that an American interest, or an Israeli one?

I'm more than happy to provide weapons and military support to our friends in Israel. But that doesn't mean that we should let Israeli interests get in the way of American interests. Detente with Iran is clearly in the US interest, in order to try and find some means for providing stability in the region. Working to slow their ability to get nuclear weapons, as well as opening up dialogues with Iran over ISIS and Yemen, to me, is a 'win-win' situation.

At a certain point, I agree with Charles DeGaulle- "Nations don't have friends, they have interests."

Darilian
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Darilian wrote:
Detente with Iran is clearly in the US interest, in order to try and find some means for providing stability in the region. Working to slow their ability to get nuclear weapons, as well as opening up dialogues with Iran over ISIS and Yemen, to me, is a 'win-win' situation.

At a certain point, I agree with Charles DeGaulle- "Nations don't have friends, they have interests."


While I generally agree with the position, conceptually, it would be nice if the leaders of Iran weren't so blatantly batshit-crazy all the time.

I'm quite game for looking at Iran as a major stabilizing influence in the region, over Israel, if Iran can prove that they can have that sort of influence. They certainly have a massive population, economic, resource, and geographic advantage to guarantee such a position. Whether they have nuclear weapons or not, in fact - of course I'd PREFER not, but it's not a deal-breaker. IF they can actually act like a modern first world nation... then, fine. Acceptable compromise.

It's that whole "able to act like a civilized, first-world nation" thing, though, that they keep failing at, so very aggressively. They seem far more MILES away from that destination, and ever increasing the distance, than making any effort to bridge the gap. So... I'm skeptical.
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Completely agreed. Further, their population, especially the younger demos, like us, like the West. They like Western values and want those for their nation.

They've had leaders like Hashimi Rafsanjani. But it seems they can't bury their crazy just yet, which is a region-wide problem.
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DWTripp wrote:

....blahblahblah...very black & white, simplistic options?


Has anyone checked the Ironometer lately?

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