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Subject: another newbie question: isn't clone too strong? rss

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Mike Bazynski
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do I understand correctly that once the clone has the 30 encounter card (I am assuming no traders/losers/viruses/pacifist and such against the clone) he can basicaly win every encounter? have an encounter, play 30, clone the 30, next encounter same turn, play 30, clone the 30, wait to be attacked, play 30, clone 30.... seems VERY strong if there happens to be no alien with power to counter it (there isn't one in the 4 races suggested for the first game in the AH rules.

am i misunderstanding his power, am i not seeing possible counter strategies, or is he as strong as he seems?

thanks a lot
 
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Joe Grundy
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If there is no power to counter the Clone, the Clone will get Cosmic Zapped by the first Cosmic Zap at the table. Other players will play Compromise cards and take consolation. In the meantime, if his hand doesn't empty the Clone runs out of any edicts and flares.

Yes it's powerful, but the powerful get subject to gang warfare in Cosmic.
 
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Brian Newman
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When Clone attacks you with his 30, play a Compromise card. Let him pick up his 30 and put it back in his hand, then draw your Consolation from his hand. Odds are, if you had 4 tokens in the challenge, you now have the 30.
 
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Brian Newman
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When Clone attacks you with his 30, play a Compromise card. Let him pick up his 30 and put it back in his hand, then draw your Consolation from his hand. Odds are, if you had 4 tokens in the challenge, you now have the 30.
 
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Steve Bachman
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Blackberry wrote:
When Clone attacks you with his 30, play a Compromise card. Let him pick up his 30 and put it back in his hand, then draw your Consolation from his hand. Odds are, if you had 4 tokens in the challenge, you now have the 30.


Except the Clone takes his card back AFTER Consolation is taken. Nonetheless, if you don't have a Zap for the Clone, draining his hand with Consolation leaving just the 30 makes the Plague even more effective than the Zap is.
 
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Joe Grundy
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Blackberry wrote:
Except the Clone takes his card back AFTER Consolation is taken. Nonetheless, if you don't have a Zap for the Clone, draining his hand with Consolation leaving just the 30 makes the Plague even more effective than the Zap is.
Hey you're right!

Wow. My bad.

Ok you're left with...
1) The Clone will be hit with zaps asap and hit with edicts and flares in general once they show they have a high attack card. Collectively, players in Cosmic usually save their best to use against someone who shows a particularly strong combination.

2) Players will play compromise cards once the Clone reveals they have a high attack card. So the Clone gets their hand emptied after just a couple of challenges and is left with just the high attack card.

Way back, I recall voluntarily not exercising Clone because basically you can't usually win the game with "just" high attack cards... I needed to let my hand empty so I could draw new cards and get some leverage.
 
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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Cosmic Encounter unbalanced?

Peter Olotka, designer of cosmic encounter, tell us how you feel:

Quote:
FAIR IS BORING.
NOT FAIR IS FUNNY AND SURPRISING.


Thanks Peter.

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Ken H.
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jgrundy wrote:
Blackberry wrote:
Except the Clone takes his card back AFTER Consolation is taken.


Hey you're right!


Really? Under Eon rules, this is not clear at all. The Mayfair version seems to be worded identically to the Eon version (thanks to http://redamedia.com/warp). So what makes you sure that it happens after consolation? I assume the little Mayfair timing symbols have something to do with it. Those, unfortunately aren't visible on the Warp website.

Does it apply to the Filch (not that anyone would want to filch a compromise)? Is the timing for Ethic's consolation draw the same?


Quote:

Ok you're left with...
1) The Clone will be hit with zaps asap and hit with edicts and flares in general once they show they have a high attack card. Collectively, players in Cosmic usually save their best to use against someone who shows a particularly strong combination.


In particular, the Finder edict will probably come out pretty quickly. Plus, people will unleash their kickers if necessary. The downside of the Clone (admittedly minor) is that everyone knows you have the big Attack card.

Quote:
Way back, I recall voluntarily not exercising Clone because basically you can't usually win the game with "just" high attack cards... I needed to let my hand empty so I could draw new cards and get some leverage.


That's a great point -- while the Clone is very powerful if he gets the 30, his power tends to reduce the overall number of cards he gets during a game, so his chances of actually getting the 30 are somewhat lower than other aliens.
 
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Brian Newman
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Ward wrote:
Blackberry wrote:
When Clone attacks you with his 30, play a Compromise card. Let him pick up his 30 and put it back in his hand, then draw your Consolation from his hand. Odds are, if you had 4 tokens in the challenge, you now have the 30.


Except the Clone takes his card back AFTER Consolation is taken. Nonetheless, if you don't have a Zap for the Clone, draining his hand with Consolation leaving just the 30 makes the Plague even more effective than the Zap is.


True enough. Is that from the AH edition? We always played that Clone took it back immediately -- i.e., it never hit the discard pile at all. The other people died and went to the Warp after all; it's a fair trade.
 
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Joe Grundy
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Rubric wrote:
jgrundy wrote:
Blackberry wrote:
Except the Clone takes his card back AFTER Consolation is taken.
Hey you're right!

Really? Under Eon rules, this is not clear at all. The Mayfair version seems to be worded identically to the Eon version (thanks to http://redamedia.com/warp). So what makes you sure that it happens after consolation? I assume the little Mayfair timing symbols have something to do with it. Those, unfortunately aren't visible on the Warp website.
Absolutely right... the timing icons make it 100% clear. (This is what I love about the Mayfair contribution, and why I much prefer playing Mayfair.) The Clone power has the icon for during the "discard used challenge cards" step. The discard step is separate and happens after the "turn up the cards and resolve the outcome" step.




Rubric wrote:
Does it apply to the Filch (not that anyone would want to filch a compromise)? Is the timing for Ethic's consolation draw the same?
I'm not near my set at the moment but I'll check and get back to you.


Rubric wrote:
In particular, the Finder edict will probably come out pretty quickly. Plus, people will unleash their kickers if necessary. The downside of the Clone (admittedly minor) is that everyone knows you have the big Attack card.
Of course while there's lots of Cosmic Zaps around, there's not so many Finder.

Does the recent AH (?) edition include kickers? Mayfair didn't, and I'm happy not to have them.


Mayfair's "Filch" also works only during the "discard challenge cards" phase of the challenge sequence. So you have to wait until then to do it, and if you wait longer you missed out. (The "Space Junk" edict works anytime to grab whatever card is on top of the discard pile.)

There is no "Ethic" in my Mayfair box.

Out of 94 basic cards in the Mayfair challenge deck, these seven could neutralise the Clone's large attack card:
3 x Cosmic Zap
1 ea Plague (discard some of everything), Emotion Control (your attack card is now a compromise card), Hand Zap, and Finder.

Quite a lot of the Flares (maybe 20%) would get past it too, but you never know what subset of Flares will be available.
 
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Ken H.
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jgrundy wrote:
Does the recent AH (?) edition include kickers? Mayfair didn't, and I'm happy not to have them.


I don't think so. I like them myself. We pretty much always used them.

Also, I thought Mayfair did have Kickers -- maybe you don't have all the expansions?

Quote:
Mayfair's "Filch" also works only during the "discard challenge cards" phase of the challenge sequence. So you have to wait until then to do it, and if you wait longer you missed out. (The "Space Junk" edict works anytime to grab whatever card is on top of the discard pile.)


Thanks for clarifying. I wish The Warp would add those symbols. I realize I can get them on rec.games, but it's tedious to search there.

Quote:
There is no "Ethic" in my Mayfair box.


Ahh, you are missing an expansion then. I don't have the text in front of me, but the gist of the power is that Ethic always collects consolation if he loses the challenge.

I see no reason to think that the timing of this ethical consolation is any different from regular consolation, so I assume Ethic trumps Clone in that regard.

Quote:
Out of 94 basic cards in the Mayfair challenge deck, these seven could neutralise the Clone's large attack card:
3 x Cosmic Zap
1 ea Plague (discard some of everything), Emotion Control (your attack card is now a compromise card), Hand Zap, and Finder.


So it's less than 10% of the cards. But, given that there are multiple cards in hand, and multiple opponents, the odds are quite good that somebody will have something. Then again, there are plenty of other threats in the game, which is one of the things that make it so interesting.
 
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Stephen Stewart
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Catanarama wrote:
Clone with the 30?

He can be zapped;
He can be plagued;
An Emotion Control turns the card into an N;
Trader can trade hands;
Sorcerer can switch cards;
Laser can force a random pick;
Calculator can reduce the 30;
Mutant can steal it;
Pacifist can play N;

etc., etc. -- those are just off the top of my head.

Like most situations in CE, Clone with the 30 might be a nice position to be in, but it's hardly unbeatable.



AGREED!!

Remember, he will get attacked a maximum of 3 times per destiny deck.
AND he can only have 2 offensive challenges. JUST don't invite him as an ally to keep his power down( i.e. cards and bases). It becomes a lonely game if you are playing > 4 players.

Hardly any power is unbeatable. That is the beauty of CE. However, some are DAMN tough in just the right situations.
 
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Mike Bazynski
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i see everyone is playing mayfair/eon, as almost everyone's advise is in one way or another not fully applicable to AH version :-) That being beside the point, what does apply should be enough to stop the clone. thanks for the replies.
 
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