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XenoShyft: Onslaught» Forums » Rules

Subject: Official XenoShyft FAQ Posted rss

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Michael Shinall
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An official FAQ has been posted here:

http://cmon.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/XenoShyft-FAQ-201...



Note that, while most of what we've been posting here on the forums is the same, we did decide to retract one specific ruling given a while back. That ruling was that Void Mines should not be treated as Troops by enemies. While the spirit of this rule is sound, it simply creates too many weird rules interactions in practicality, so we've retracted our statement on that topic.


Otherwise, there you go!
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John Fanjoy
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Typos:
- answer to Havoc question mentions Drone and Drone's ability, rather than referring to Havoc and Havoc's ability (all enemies in lane receive +1 power this round)
- Bomber explanation mentions "nHi-Ex Grenade"



Really surprised by:
- Field Medic not affected by Med Bay
- Med Bots can be equipped with items
 
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King Maple
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Question about paratrooper-more-than-4-in-lane is listed twice.

Also, it says that void mine is treated as troop in all instances. But only one troop can be in a single zone. The card states that it can be deployed on occupied area, so that's an exception. Nevermind.

Also there is a rules conflict with hi-ex grenade. Rulebook says that cards can only be played on revealed enemies. So if a card does not state unrevealed, it can only affect revealed enemies (as usual, rulebook takes precedence unless card says otherwise).

So either the card needs an errata, or it cannot affect unrevealed enemy. Or the rulebook is incorrect and should say not 'revealed' in Reaction phase.

The rulebook actually says TWICE that only revealed enemies can be targeted in combat. So only cards that say 'unrevealed' can be used on unrevealed cards.

I would say that HI-EX Grenade should not be used on unrevealed cards if strictly following the rulebook and the card itself, no matter how it is worded.
 
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Michael Shinall
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Actually the rulebook states this:


2. REACTION
• At this time all players have a chance to
react to the revealed Enemy. This includes
using Special Abilities on their cards or
playing Instant cards from their hand.
• Once all players have had a chance to
react to the revealed enemy, and all cards
played have resolved, the Fight step begins.


It doesn't say cards played have to target the revealed enemy, it states all players get a reaction to the revealed Enemy, but I understand the confusion that can come from reading it multiple ways.



 
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Michael Shinall wrote:
Actually the rulebook states this:


2. REACTION
• At this time all players have a chance to
react to the revealed Enemy. This includes
using Special Abilities on their cards or
playing Instant cards from their hand.
• Once all players have had a chance to
react to the revealed enemy, and all cards
played have resolved, the Fight step begins.


It doesn't say cards played have to target the revealed enemy, it states all players get a reaction to the revealed Enemy, but I understand the confusion that can come from reading it multiple ways.


I know you are the designer and everything, so your word is the word of Game God, but this is REALLY not about reading it multiple ways. How could anyone read it as if you can react to unrevealed enemies in that phase?

The rulebook says that you can only play cards in combat during Reaction Phase and it says so, twice, that you can 'react to revealed Enemy' and that the phase is over once players have played cards on 'revealed enemies'.

If somehow you can still play on unrevealed enemies that are not covered anywhere in the rulebook then this would imply that you can actually do it OUTSIDE the Reaction phase.

Is there a reason why the grenade should be played on unrevealed enemy anyway? Is something broken if we play it the way the rulebook says (and what the card must follow)?
 
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Simon
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Slashdoctor wrote:
If somehow you can still play on unrevealed enemies that are not covered anywhere in the rulebook then this would imply that you can actually do it OUTSIDE the Reaction phase.


Er... You can't? We've been using instants as... well, instants, in magic. Reveals just don't use the stack.
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DoubleH wrote:
Slashdoctor wrote:
If somehow you can still play on unrevealed enemies that are not covered anywhere in the rulebook then this would imply that you can actually do it OUTSIDE the Reaction phase.


Er... You can't? We've been using instants as... well, instants, in magic. Reveals just don't use the stack.


That's not really the question. The rulebook says that you can play cards during Reaction Phase on revealed enemies. Thus if a card does not say 'unrevealed enemy', then the rulebook should be followed, thus the Hi-Ex Grenade can only be used on revealed enemies.

It's the golden rule in card games like this. Cards can break rules that are described in rulebook but only if card specifically states so.

In this case it does not.

And I'm not sure if something else 'breaks' in this game if the rulebook is fixed by taking out 'revealed' in that sentence. Are there other cards in the game that just say 'enemy' instead of revealed/unrevealed?
 
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John Fanjoy
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Slashdoctor wrote:
DoubleH wrote:
Slashdoctor wrote:
If somehow you can still play on unrevealed enemies that are not covered anywhere in the rulebook then this would imply that you can actually do it OUTSIDE the Reaction phase.


Er... You can't? We've been using instants as... well, instants, in magic. Reveals just don't use the stack.


That's not really the question. The rulebook says that you can play cards during Reaction Phase on revealed enemies. Thus if a card does not say 'unrevealed enemy', then the rulebook should be followed, thus the Hi-Ex Grenade can only be used on revealed enemies.

It's the golden rule in card games like this. Cards can break rules that are described in rulebook but only if card specifically states so.

In this case it does not.

And I'm not sure if something else 'breaks' in this game if the rulebook is fixed by taking out 'revealed' in that sentence. Are there other cards in the game that just say 'enemy' instead of revealed/unrevealed?
It doesn't say that you can only play cards "on" revealed enemies. The actual text is quoted upthread, it says you have a chance to react to the revealed enemy.

Not necessarily exhaustive list of cards this applies to:
Vindicator Armor
Longshot Grenade Launcher
Hi-Ex Grenade
Mind Blast
Science Lab
Volt Crasher Arc-Suit
Grim Reaper
Killer Whale
Brigadier General Krueger
Inferno Grenade


P.S. Reveal effects do still "use the stack" for you MTG players, it's just that not all instants can respond to them.
 
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CitizenFry wrote:
Slashdoctor wrote:
DoubleH wrote:
Slashdoctor wrote:
If somehow you can still play on unrevealed enemies that are not covered anywhere in the rulebook then this would imply that you can actually do it OUTSIDE the Reaction phase.


Er... You can't? We've been using instants as... well, instants, in magic. Reveals just don't use the stack.


That's not really the question. The rulebook says that you can play cards during Reaction Phase on revealed enemies. Thus if a card does not say 'unrevealed enemy', then the rulebook should be followed, thus the Hi-Ex Grenade can only be used on revealed enemies.

It's the golden rule in card games like this. Cards can break rules that are described in rulebook but only if card specifically states so.

In this case it does not.

And I'm not sure if something else 'breaks' in this game if the rulebook is fixed by taking out 'revealed' in that sentence. Are there other cards in the game that just say 'enemy' instead of revealed/unrevealed?
It doesn't say that you can only play cards "on" revealed enemies. The actual text is quoted upthread, it says you have a chance to react to the revealed enemy.

Not necessarily exhaustive list of cards this applies to:
Vindicator Armor
Longshot Grenade Launcher
Hi-Ex Grenade
Mind Blast
Science Lab
Volt Crasher Arc-Suit
Grim Reaper
Killer Whale
Brigadier General Krueger
Inferno Grenade


P.S. Reveal effects do still "use the stack" for you MTG players, it's just that not all instants can respond to them.


Exactly, it doesn't say you have a chance to react to unrevealed enemy, just revealed one.
 
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John Fanjoy
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CitizenFry wrote:
Really surprised by:
- Field Medic not affected by Med Bay
- Med Bots can be equipped with items

I can't wait to strap Vindicator Armor and a Hellblaster to it!
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CitizenFry wrote:
Really surprised by:
- Field Medic not affected by Med Bay


Agreed, that makes no sense given the text of both cards.

CitizenFry wrote:
- Med Bots can be equipped with items


That one doesn't surprise me. It says to deploy it as a troop and continues to refer to it as a troop on the card, so it seems appropriate to do everything to it you would do it a troop.

I do wish the F.A.Q. included clarification of Instant cards. Their use is never actually defined in the rulebook, only passing mention of them during the Reaction step. Wording in the F.A.Q. for the Med Pack ("intended to be played when a Trooper suffers damage") implies it would usually be played during the Fight step, but the only rules reference (and example) are during the Reaction step - is that the only time you are allowed to play Instants?
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ATT_Turan wrote:
I do wish the F.A.Q. included clarification of Instant cards. Their use is never actually defined in the rulebook, only passing mention of them during the Reaction step. Wording in the F.A.Q. for the Med Pack ("intended to be played when a Trooper suffers damage") implies it would usually be played during the Fight step, but the only rules reference (and example) are during the Reaction step - is that the only time you are allowed to play Instants?


Not only that, but the entire rulebook makes NO MENTION of when you can play ANY Technology card at all. Sometimes I wonder how much did they playtest this considering that this game has so much confusion across the entire game. I mean, I have played it three times and I have more confusion than I've had with any game that I can think of.
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Michael Shinall
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Technology is just a keyword that Item Cards can have. They are not a special card type in themselves. Also baring that every single Technology card in the game is an Instant save 2, both of which are played during Deployment.

I honestly feel after reading your comments that (and take this as you will) are you trying to too stringently place restrictions on things. The base rules provide a general guideline of how the game works, and then individual cards can modify that. The example back with the Hi-Ex: if face-down enemies could never be damaged, then there would be absolutely no need for a specific section of the rules talking about just how to handle that.


Now, I will also say that the Field Medic/Med Bay issue is definitely not as intended, and I will be getting that changed.


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Michael Shinall wrote:
Technology is just a keyword that Item Cards can have. They are not a special card type in themselves. Also baring that every single Technology card in the game is an Instant save 2, both of which are played during Deployment.

I honestly feel after reading your comments that (and take this as you will) are you trying to too stringently place restrictions on things. The base rules provide a general guideline of how the game works, and then individual cards can modify that. The example back with the Hi-Ex: if face-down enemies could never be damaged, then there would be absolutely no need for a specific section of the rules talking about just how to handle that.


Now, I will also say that the Field Medic/Med Bay issue is definitely not as intended, and I will be getting that changed.




I am just a long-time boardgamer and I have played A LOT of card games that never have this issue (ones far more complicated than this one). It is usually really simple: the rulebook gives you the basic framework and the cards define exceptions.

With XenoShyft it is different. The rulebook gives you SOME framework, cards give you SOME exceptions and everything else is done through 'common sense' - except that common sense is different between people.

So if a rulebook says that you can react to revealed enemies during Reaction Phase and the item card does not say it can attack unrevealed enemy, a player like me will not know that it is 'common sense' in your head that you can use it.

If I would play it with another person who is accustomed to board and card games, then I can easily see how we would argue about this, simply because rulebook is unable to set this in stone.

And this is not a problem in other card games with complicated effects. Yes there are 'questions' about timing as in every other game, but I've never encountered a game like this (which manages to fill two pages of Rules forum with threads while being brand new).

And - don't take it the wrong way - from your responses you seem to avoid wanting to make 'changes' to issues that have been pointed out. I think it would be great for you to get used to it and learn from it, because XenoShyft is a GREAT game and I am happy you made it happen and will look forward to your other games in the future
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Michael - a statement on Instants? Are they correctly played at any appropriate time, or only during the Reaction step?
 
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Craig Wright
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I read it as a timing statement.
- Enemy revealed
- Special abilities and instants are played
- Fight step begins

It did not specify that the revealed enemey must be the target

"Reacting to" a revealed enemy does not equal "target" revealed enemy, although I can see how one might conflate them.

Since I read it as a timing statement I see no implcation one can play them outside the reaction phase.

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Okay, but this thread has already established that the way a specific person might read a passage in the rules is not necessarily aligned with the designer's intent. Add to this language in the F.A.Q. which I already quoted which does imply otherwise, and the analogue to similarly-titled cards in other games which are intended to be played outside of specific phases, and it is simply not clear.

Thus, with no snark or offense intended, I am not interested in how you read it as much as I am interested in a statement of intent from someone involved in the game.
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ATT_Turan wrote:

Thus, with no snark or offense intended, I am not interested in how you read it as much as I am interested in a statement of intent from someone involved in the game.


I feel that the sheer volume of rulings makes the intent quite clear. Except for the known restrictions, instants can be played pretty much anytime.

What IS more problematic is the many ambiguities between instants. Gore Mosquito, mortally wounded Storm Troopers... that kind of thing. That's my biggest pain point.
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Michael Shinall
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Alright guys, we've updated the FAQ right quick, added some clarifying points (and reversed that ruling on Med Bay and Field Medics, which again, was just not correct!)

http://cmon.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/XS_FAQ_2015-V2.pd...

Also created a Printer Friendly Version as well:

http://cmon.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Xenoshyft-FAQ-Pri...

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Thanks for the printer-friendly version, and thanks for addressing Instant timing. Craig may find it easier to play now
 
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Thanks for the FAQ. Can you also post a final rulebook? That would be awesome...
 
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John Fanjoy
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I must have missed these typos on my previous readthrough:
Spark Jumper: answer refers to it as "Sparker Jumper"

"Weapon's Research" should be Weapons Research

"ONE precombat reaction" answer: "each players gets" should be "each player gets"

"Can I use effects on other player's lanes" should be either "Can I use effects on other players' lanes" or "Can I use effects on another player's lane"

Med Pack/Pulsar Shield question uses the word "Trooper," should be "Troop" for consistency.

----------------

Drop Ship clarification says "to your lane" in two places. The card text doesn't seem to have that restriction:

Drop Ship {3}: Place 1 troop card from any discard pile into an empty combat zone.

-----------------

Overseer: what happens if there aren't any Gatherers in the encounter deck OR in the discard pile (because they're all in lanes)?

------------------

A few answers use the term "owner." I don't think that term is explained anywhere. Perhaps it should be?
 
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To CMON and Mike Shinall: thanks for posting the OFFICIAL FAQs... saves me from having to compile the thread I started as I promised (was going to work on it this weekend). laugh
 
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I still have a Void Mine question. Check me one this clarification:

ONLY Enemies treat Void Mines as Troops. No friendly card or effect treats Void Mines as Troops. They can't have equipment, be healed, trigger or Elite StormTrooper.

I say this because the FAQ makes two different statements:

Quote:

Q: Can the BUTCHER ever trigger a VOID MINE?
A: Yes, the text can be misleading, but a Void Mine should be
treated as a Troop for all purposes.

Q: How does the VOID MINE interact with abilities that target
Troops (such as the Panic Spider or Prowler)?
A: Enemies should treat the Void Mine as a Troop for all
purposes. So a Prowler’s reveal would trigger the Void Mine.


I think the 1st statement is vague, and relies on the context. The 2nd statement is more precise.
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