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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » Strategy

Subject: The Fine Science of Maneuvering rss

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David Griffin
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I've been sitting here playing practice games on a blank map trying to come up with ways to finesse "first contact" with a Romulan build with two Scimitars and a Prototype 01. My own build is a "Galaxy Wing" composed of three Galaxies (always wanted to do that). Now I know I'd be better off with Sovereigns but let's just go with it.

So we know the Galaxy maneuvers like an Oil Tanker. The first problem is how to finesse the initial contact without losing a Galaxy ... if possible. Then the question is what to do afterward.

For the first part, I've been experimenting with DeltaAngelFire's weave to sow confusion in my enemy so he's not quite sure where I'm going. It seems to me that I need to try to arrange a single engage on the first pass which means coming short of range 3 and then mixing it up in range 1. Any advice on this initial approach?

Once past the initial engagement, I'm using the Indy Federation flagship on a generic Galaxy class to give an extra 1 turn to either of the other Galaxies. God knows the Galaxy needs it. Any advice on this aspect of the flight?

Another problem I have is out of arc firing. The D can fire 3 dice range 1-2. The second galaxy can fire 4 dice range 1-2 (dorsal phaser array). The third is the Mirror D which has the Dorsal Weapons Array (which has its issues). So the Galaxies are good ships, but once the engagement happens, we are not nearly as maneuverable as even the Scimitars.

So I think this will be a fun game, win or lose, but if you have some tactical advice or maneuvering tips, I'd like to hear it! Thanks.

And hey Will Sanchez, this would be a good instructional video, wouldn't it?
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Typheron Joyzxqk
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Remember that one of the fed admirals can also provide additional movement as a fleet action. Having 2 out of your 3 ships able to turn like that it's handy.
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David Griffin
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Typheron wrote:
Remember that one of the fed admirals can also provide additional movement as a fleet action. Having 2 out of your 3 ships able to turn like that it's handy.


That's Forrest, with the new rules you still can take the maneuver even if it is not on your dial and its white if not indicated otherwise right? Also Forrest can do this on any ship, even his own right?
 
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Typheron Joyzxqk
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Quote:
30. If a card states you may perform a maneuver (not a Sensor Echo) and your ship does not have that maneuver
listed on its card you may still perform that maneuver as a White Maneuver provided by the card.


Quote:
34. Cards that state you may or are forced to perform a specific maneuver allow your ship to perform the
maneuver even if it is not present on the ship’s dial except for Space Stations which may only perform maneuvers
revealed and printed on the Space Station’s dial.
Example: Admiral Forest – FLEET ACTION: Perform an additional 1 Maneuver (straight, bank or turn)


As long as he is an Admiral, any ship in the fleet (not fighters, as they are no longer considered ships) can use their action to perform the fleet action. Fleet actions can only be performed once per turn.

Remember that if a ship cannot perform a normal action (it has aux for instance) then it cannot perform a free action during its turn.

If it were me, i would have the 2 generic galaxys pull the extra moves and have a ent-D use its 360 arc.

The other option would be to drop the fleet captain and use the about turn resources instead.
 
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Ellis Norris
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Don't forget about the Fed Fleet Captain!
 
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Tom Coon
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LandoG wrote:
Don't forget about the Fed Fleet Captain!


Independent Federation Fleet Captain.
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D Conklin
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I'd be tempted to do something unorthodox with one of the Galaxies...like a Picard Maneuver out of the gate followed by a Cochrane the next turn. Expensive as heck, but you'd have a ship behind him and him caught in the crossfire. If nothing else, you will have out Romulaned a Romulan.
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David Griffin
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Typheron wrote:
Quote:
30. If a card states you may perform a maneuver (not a Sensor Echo) and your ship does not have that maneuver
listed on its card you may still perform that maneuver as a White Maneuver provided by the card.


Quote:
34. Cards that state you may or are forced to perform a specific maneuver allow your ship to perform the
maneuver even if it is not present on the ship’s dial except for Space Stations which may only perform maneuvers
revealed and printed on the Space Station’s dial.
Example: Admiral Forest – FLEET ACTION: Perform an additional 1 Maneuver (straight, bank or turn)


As long as he is an Admiral, any ship in the fleet (not fighters, as they are no longer considered ships) can use their action to perform the fleet action. Fleet actions can only be performed once per turn.

Remember that if a ship cannot perform a normal action (it has aux for instance) then it cannot perform a free action during its turn.

If it were me, i would have the 2 generic galaxys pull the extra moves and have a ent-D use its 360 arc.

The other option would be to drop the fleet captain and use the about turn resources instead.


The skilled helmsman resource gives you 2 AUX tokens for a ship that doesn't have a comeabout! Ughh. Who would use this thing?

Of course it's all easier if you just use Sovereigns or even Nebulas but I am doing a Galaxy Wing and they're cool to see on the table. I'd like to get Marlena Moreau on my Mirror Galaxy D to protect Riker but I don't have the points.
 
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David Griffin
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dc0nklin wrote:
I'd be tempted to do something unorthodox with one of the Galaxies...like a Picard Maneuver out of the gate followed by a Cochrane the next turn. Expensive as heck, but you'd have a ship behind him and him caught in the crossfire. If nothing else, you will have out Romulaned a Romulan.


Well I feel like keeping them in formation but I think that's a bad idea really, though I still need to stay in r1-2 for the fleet captain. The reason is that it's hard to turn ALL the galaxies so for sure they will get broken up a little and the crossfire does kind of work, but then you have to scramble to try to keep up the pressure. Plus I agree that anything that discombobulates your opponent is good.
 
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Dave C
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Why not try something like the following?

SpaceDock for Android http://spacedockapp.org wrote:

U.S.S. Enterprise-D (28)
Jean-Luc Picard (6)
Engage (3)
Total (37)

Galaxy Class (26)
Mr. Spock (4)
Maxwell Forrest (3)
Dorsal Weapons Array (3)
Total (36)

U.S.S. Enterprise-D (28)
Fleet Captain: Independent (Federation) (5)
William T. Riker (4)
Independent (Federation) (5)
Dorsal Weapons Array (2)
Total (39)

Fleet total: 112


I'm not sure what your point max is (I've assumed 120), but this build will let you double-soft 1 on the Fed Ent D while still getting an action, Forrest on the Galaxy class while still grabbing a target lock, and do the free FC move on the Mirror Ent D. Of course, the Forrest and FC moves are swap-able, so another ship could take them if necessary. All ships have a 3-die 360-degree attack. You've got 8 points left to spend (more if you swap out Riker), plus can equip a free ET on the Mirror.
 
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David Griffin
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The ship I'm most worried about maneuvering is Riker's mirror Enterprise D since it lacks the dorsal phaser array (without going cross faction anyway). So I'm thinking the fleet captain needs to be on a different ship. Also the fleet captain's increased captain skill is useful on Spock who goes from 6 to 7. I know Forrest does the same thing but the FC is actionless and its the one I will most use.

Then why put Dorsal Weapons array on Spock's ship and worry about reenabling it when you have dorsal phaser array, even at higher points?

Then there is attack dice. If I'm really facing two Scimitars which is a possibility, I need more attack dice. Riker is fine with 5/6 but the others need more, at least one of the others. I'm thinking about Scotty TOS on Picard's Enterprise D and maybe even Tactical Station for a really good alpha strike.

I can't deny I'd like engage on the third ship. If I do give the FC to Spock, maybe I'll also give him the Engage. I currently have Forrest on Picard because I can't put him on Riker due to faction penalty (darn those guys for making the assimilated galaxy mirror).

What's the separate line below Independent (Federation) 5 points?

Keep in mind that I WILL get the Thaleron weapon fired at me. It'd be nice to have a solution for that.
 
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Dave C
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carbon_dragon wrote:
The ship I'm most worried about maneuvering is Riker's mirror Enterprise D since it lacks the dorsal phaser array (without going cross faction anyway). So I'm thinking the fleet captain needs to be on a different ship. Also the fleet captain's increased captain skill is useful on Spock who goes from 6 to 7. I know Forrest does the same thing but the FC is actionless and its the one I will most use.

Then why put Dorsal Weapons array on Spock's ship and worry about reenabling it when you have dorsal phaser array, even at higher points?

Then there is attack dice. If I'm really facing two Scimitars which is a possibility, I need more attack dice. Riker is fine with 5/6 but the others need more, at least one of the others. I'm thinking about Scotty TOS on Picard's Enterprise D and maybe even Tactical Station for a really good alpha strike.

I can't deny I'd like engage on the third ship. If I do give the FC to Spock, maybe I'll also give him the Engage. I currently have Forrest on Picard because I can't put him on Riker due to faction penalty (darn those guys for making the assimilated galaxy mirror).

What's the separate line below Independent (Federation) 5 points?

Keep in mind that I WILL get the Thaleron weapon fired at me. It'd be nice to have a solution for that.

If the ship you’re most worried about maneuvering is Riker's Ent D, then why not put the FC on that? The FC allows you to target the ship that it’s on. By going Picard-Engage, Spock-Forrest, and Riker-FC, you get three ships that not only are more maneuverable, but that also aren't dependent on formation flying to maintain that maneuverability. Given that you’re biggest threat is cloaked ships sensor-echoing out of arc, I imagine that being able to spread the ships out if needed will be helpful. You avoid faction penalties. Your captains will be skill 7 (Spock), 8 (Riker), and 9 (Picard). Picard and Spock still get their free actions each turn, and Riker could theoretically re-enable the DWA most turns while still taking a BS or TL for dice quality.

I mainly grabbed the DWA for Spock’s ship just to save the points, though at +1 dice and no re-enabling for +2 points the DPA is probably a good call.

I share your concern about the number of attack dice you’re throwing. That being said, I might focus more on quality vs. quantity. If you don’t mind cross-factioning, Boheeka on Picard's ship or Tactical officer on Spock’s should get you some good quality, even if you are only throwing 4/5 dice (unfortunately you can’t afford both plus a DPA). If you don’t want to cross-faction, how about Chekov (blank re-roll) on Picard's ship and Deanna Troi on Spock's?

Also, assuming you put FC on Riker, why not grab the Strafing Run ET to allow him to make an outside-of-forward-arc action-phase attack?

As for Thaleron weapon, I’m not sure there is a decent solution given what you're going for in this build... Were I using it, I’d have it on a cloaked Reman/Scimitar, with a high-skill captain and a BS token ready to use (so either Mendak on another ship or Picard-as-Shinzon captaining). That’d be pretty tough to take out before it fires. Troi MIGHT provide a solution if you can time her right to at least hurt the action economy/drop the captain skill, but I wouldn’t count on it. Short of throwing some form of attack cancellation on all 3 ships, I’m not sure there’s much you can do. Riker's Mirror D is your heaviest hitter, so “We Won’t Go Back” might be a half-decent deterrent, but your opponent will probably just target Picard or Spock instead at that point.
 
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David Griffin
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dprcooke wrote:
carbon_dragon wrote:
The ship I'm most worried about maneuvering is Riker's mirror Enterprise D since it lacks the dorsal phaser array (without going cross faction anyway). So I'm thinking the fleet captain needs to be on a different ship. Also the fleet captain's increased captain skill is useful on Spock who goes from 6 to 7. I know Forrest does the same thing but the FC is actionless and its the one I will most use.

Then why put Dorsal Weapons array on Spock's ship and worry about reenabling it when you have dorsal phaser array, even at higher points?

Then there is attack dice. If I'm really facing two Scimitars which is a possibility, I need more attack dice. Riker is fine with 5/6 but the others need more, at least one of the others. I'm thinking about Scotty TOS on Picard's Enterprise D and maybe even Tactical Station for a really good alpha strike.

I can't deny I'd like engage on the third ship. If I do give the FC to Spock, maybe I'll also give him the Engage. I currently have Forrest on Picard because I can't put him on Riker due to faction penalty (darn those guys for making the assimilated galaxy mirror).

What's the separate line below Independent (Federation) 5 points?

Keep in mind that I WILL get the Thaleron weapon fired at me. It'd be nice to have a solution for that.

If the ship you’re most worried about maneuvering is Riker's Ent D, then why not put the FC on that? The FC allows you to target the ship that it’s on. By going Picard-Engage, Spock-Forrest, and Riker-FC, you get three ships that not only are more maneuverable, but that also aren't dependent on formation flying to maintain that maneuverability. Given that you’re biggest threat is cloaked ships sensor-echoing out of arc, I imagine that being able to spread the ships out if needed will be helpful. You avoid faction penalties. Your captains will be skill 7 (Spock), 8 (Riker), and 9 (Picard). Picard and Spock still get their free actions each turn, and Riker could theoretically re-enable the DWA most turns while still taking a BS or TL for dice quality.

I mainly grabbed the DWA for Spock’s ship just to save the points, though at +1 dice and no re-enabling for +2 points the DPA is probably a good call.

I share your concern about the number of attack dice you’re throwing. That being said, I might focus more on quality vs. quantity. If you don’t mind cross-factioning, Boheeka on Picard's ship or Tactical officer on Spock’s should get you some good quality, even if you are only throwing 4/5 dice (unfortunately you can’t afford both plus a DPA). If you don’t want to cross-faction, how about Chekov (blank re-roll) on Picard's ship and Deanna Troi on Spock's?

Also, assuming you put FC on Riker, why not grab the Strafing Run ET to allow him to make an outside-of-forward-arc action-phase attack?

As for Thaleron weapon, I’m not sure there is a decent solution given what you're going for in this build... Were I using it, I’d have it on a cloaked Reman/Scimitar, with a high-skill captain and a BS token ready to use (so either Mendak on another ship or Picard-as-Shinzon captaining). That’d be pretty tough to take out before it fires. Troi MIGHT provide a solution if you can time her right to at least hurt the action economy/drop the captain skill, but I wouldn’t count on it. Short of throwing some form of attack cancellation on all 3 ships, I’m not sure there’s much you can do. Riker's Mirror D is your heaviest hitter, so “We Won’t Go Back” might be a half-decent deterrent, but your opponent will probably just target Picard or Spock instead at that point.


We typically try to avoid cross factioning. I might mix the mirror federation with the federation or something semi-reasonable but we try to play thematically, at least in non OP games. He typically uses Shinzon for high captain skill (not a great ability though admittedly).

My adversary practice games are probably tougher builds than he might make, I put an interphase generator on the Scimitar along with a polarized hull plating so he probably can't be one-shotted before firing. Probably should have 2 interphase generators. I like the idea of We Won't go back but I'm not sure it activates with secondary weapons, though admittedly it does affect crew. The ruling was that secondary weapons don't activate it though so I'm not sure. Marlena Moreau might save the captain.

I'll have a look at strafing run. 4 dice is marginal against the Scimitar but with high quality it can work. Picard with TOS Scotty is dangerous enough at the expense of a ship action and the mirror ship doesn't even need the action. So it's a mixed bag. Out of arc it's harder. With just the Dorsal Weapons Array, it's just 3 dice with disable which is really bad for the mirror ship. With Picard scotty can still increase the Enterprise D's value I think (because it just adds attack dice to any attack, not just primary).

I'll play around with the movement enhancers.
 
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Remember, since Strafing Run happens out of Combat Phase, the Scimitar's cloak will not protect it.
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The_Doctor wrote:
Remember, since Strafing Run happens out of Combat Phase, the Scimitar's cloak will not protect it.


That is an excellent point!
 
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Dave C
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I saw you mention in another thread that you had run your 3 Galaxy build... what did you end up going with and how did it perform?
 
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dprcooke wrote:
I saw you mention in another thread that you had run your 3 Galaxy build... what did you end up going with and how did it perform?



He picked two Scimitars, the named one and a non-named one. Shinzon on the named with Thaleron. He had a fair number of upgrades but nothing I was real worried about except for the Thaleron and the Indy Fed fleet captain (same as mine). I had to move mine to Picard or he'd move last and shoot first. That turned out bad since my engage went with it (free from the FC).

I ended up with good shots in the initial engagement and shot first, but the Scimitar is a big ship and with 6 defense dice, even my Picard alpha strike with 4 + 2 (scotty) + 2 (Tactical Station) just wounded him badly. He then shot and thaleron'd Picard. Then my other Enterprise D and Spock's ship blew him to pieces, but only because he drew the direct hit critical, man that's a tough ship. 4 dice from Spock just really isn't enough.

I flew past him while he tried to crawl toward me with the other Scimitar and took some pot shots at the Reman warbird but didn't do much damage but at least he didn't have a shot. The next round while the D was turning around, the Reman finished it off. So now the ships have substantially disengaged and the Galaxies are turning around, but not closely pursued. He just kept not turning about because I think he was averse to the aux token and was feeling defensive 1 against 2. I was using Forrest to help me come around and I finally did. I broke up the galaxies, using Brunt on Riker's D to aux him so he'd be more dependable. He surprised me by doing whites holding on to the Aux, but I broke up the galaxies and was usually getting 1 shot at him, whittling away his defenses (and took some light damage myself). I finally blew him up with Riker's 5 dice plus 1 for disabling a shield.

I didn't adequately control the joust, the idea was to approach closely enough so he couldn't fire the Thaleron but I was just a hair out of range 1 which lost me Picard. I should have taken a triple move or something with Forest and the FC maybe. I did take a double move but couldn't measure of course. After that I was able to substantially control the game so that I was in arc more often than he was. The maneuvering (FC early, and Forrest later) was a BIG help. And my opponent's failure to use the Scimitar (or RWB generic) aggressively to turnabout on his enemies hurt him. Also his lack of an interphase generator hurt him too (he would have survived). He didn't have one but I offered to loan him the one I have.

I think had he played more aggressively he would have done better, Scimitars are really Klingon style ships, and had he done that, I would have had my hands full even with Forrest. I think splitting up the Galaxies is probably essential against a more powerful ship with a turnabout so that someone can always be shooting at him. With 1 Reman warbird against the two Galaxies I think he had to take the battle to me, keeping me under pressure trying to turn and consuming actions while he used them to do target locks.

He also lacked some critical Romulan cards like tactical officer or even Toreth to get crits. Or Romulan pilot for an extra move. I'm not sure he ever actually used the fleet captain prior to losing the ship.

But then I made repeated mistakes too, aiming to get outside his arc but ending up just in or bumping once. And I forgot to use Brunt for quite a period when it would have been more effective.

It was a lot of fun to see 3 Galaxies on the table, even if they aren't the best tools in the chest these days.

EDIT: Forgot the build

NOTES: Enterprise D does Scotty, Picard does BS. Tactical station discard for alpha strike. Spock does scan to activate Valtane and the ship does battlestations (target lock not possible due to cloak). Riker disables a shield and shoots 6 dice, Brunting a Scimitar when appropriate (that was the plan anyway). Dorsal weapons array for emergencies (and I did use it when I sailed by him). Indy fleet captain for as many additional maneuvers as were appropriate.

U.S.S. Enterprise-D [Starter] (28)
Jean-Luc Picard [Starter] (6)
Fleet Captain: Independent (Federation) [CollectivePP2] (5)
Engage [Starter] (0)
Montgomery Scott [Enterprise] (5)
Tactical Station [U.S.S. Stargazer Competitive Prize] (4)
Total (48)

Galaxy Class [Starter] (26)
Mr. Spock [Refit] (4)
Adm Maxwell Forrest [Enterprise NX-01 Expansion] (3)
Dmitri Valtane [Excelsior] (3)
Dorsal Phaser Array [U.S.S. Enterprise-E Expansion] (5)
Total (41)

U.S.S. Enterprise-D [Assimilation Target Prime] (28)
William T. Riker [Assimilation Target Prime] (4)
Brunt [Regent's Flagship] (1)
Dorsal Weapons Array [Prakesh Expansion] (2)
Total (35)

Fleet total: 124

Generated by Space Dock for iOS
http://spacedockapp.org
 
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David Griffin
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I took out a bunch of my stands and set up a problem where you start off facing each other at range 3. My arbitrary selection was an unmaneuverable ship (Fed Galaxy) vs. a Scimitar (more maneuverable). Then I tried to analyze the problem of deciding what to do (probably not very well). The thing is, there's nothing magical here in that you have to guess where he will go and try to move in response. If you're moving second, you can see where he is going and your secondary movement is particularly effective. If you're moving first, you can move to block where you think he might go. But in the end you guess at his probable movements and try to move somewhere where you have a shot and he does not. Minimizing the chances of him having a GREAT shot where you have no action is also a good thing



This diagram starts with the Galaxy class between the indy fed fleet captain card and Admiral Forrest. This diagram is designed to show maneuver options if you have both the resource and the admiral to give extra actions. The ship can move back 2 or forward up to 5. We have one base back at 2 (which would give you an aux token), one forward at 2 and one at 5. The Scimitar base is range 3 to start as a reference point. Of course you don’t know how the Scimitar will move.

So the two stands on either side of the 2 forward are 3 bank in both directions. This is as “turned” as you can do in a Galaxy unless you want to pick up an Aux Token in which case you can do a 3 turn (not shown). If we start out JUST considering those options (without any special movement) then we know the Scimitar can go forward up to 6 and can do a 4 turnabout.

So what goes through your mind in this situation as the Federation player (or as the Romulan player)?

Moving back is just going to set you up for another shot from the Scimitar unless he turns about, in which case it’s great. Using the 3 banks or the 5 straight can possibly get you behind the Scimitar if he moves forward far enough (say 3-4) and might be good if you have rear or 360 weapons (which the Enterprise D has natively). If he moves forward 1, you might still be in arc with the 3 banks. If you go forward 5 and he goes forward 3 either he will bump or will be just past you. In the first case he loses his actions and in the second you might have a shot where he does not. But he can counter this by using the turnabout.

So this is somewhat circular, but it all goes down to anticipating the Scimitar’s move and understanding who will move first. If your opponent likes risky or dramatic maneuvering, he might zoom forward hoping to bump you or do a turnabout (but at range 3 a turnabout is unlikely really). If he is less dramatic, he will probably move forward a short distance. I would be tempted in this case to be dramatic myself and do a 5 forward hoping to surprise him.

But now let’s see what happens when you have the extra movement. The Fleet Captain is first because it doesn’t require an action. You can do a white 1 straight, forward or turn. A white turn is pretty powerful. So at one level removed, you can see the bases with 2 dice on them (indicating the ruler lengths they have moved – 3 1 means 3 bank then 1 turn or bank). From the 3 bank positions we can do a 1 bank or a 1 turn and end up in those four positions.

If he turnabouts he’s still got you in his sights, though without actions and you can’t target him except maybe by 360 arcs if you are not too far. But if he moves short you may have an uncontested shot. Even the bank might give you a 360 shot. Using Admiral Forrest as well uses up your ship action but gets you to the bases with 3 dice which is great if he does a full stop but that is unlikely. It might give you a shot if he moves short (or a 360 shot) but it does position you to turn around pretty well. Plus it’s not shown but you can 1 turn twice and you end up facing off arc but mostly turned about. Note however that even with these options, turning a Galaxy with a ship with Klingon style movement is probably not the best idea. What you’re really looking for is to deny your opponent shots while getting them yourself though if your opponent has his own 360 this is harder and dictated not by arc but by range.

So if you have no extra movement, what is your normal move for the Galaxy (or the Scimitar) or both? When does it change (aggressive opponent, Borg, etc.)? Why that move?

If you HAVE extra movement, where do you try to go and how does moving first vs. last factor into that equation. I tried to talk about my own analysis, but there's lots better players than me so I want YOUR analysis.
 
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