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Subject: Change of control rss

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John Michalski
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Hi,

Suppose France is controlled by player A who invested 9M in it. Player B has invested 2M and player C 1M (still in France). Player B controls another country and is in possession of the Investor card. Player C does not control any country.

Suppose also France becomes the active nation, and player A moves its token 3 spaces from the Manoeuver spot to the Production spot, hence skipping the Investor spot.

Now come the assumptions and questions based on the suppositions above.

1. Production or Investor first?
What is played first? Production or Investor? The rules seem to hint that the Investor action is played first, or at least phases 2 and 3 of the Investor action, hence skipping the revenue distribution.

2. Change of control before Production?
Supposing the above question is answered by "Investor", the order of investors is:
1. Player B because he has the Investor card
2. Player C because he controls no nation
(Player A has no right to issue bonds)
Supposing player B upgrades his French 2M bond to a 12M bond, while player C issues the 2M bond to France again, we reach a situation where player B has now become the largest creditor of France.
When does France "move" from the control of player A to the control of player B? Before the Production action occurs? After Production has occurred? In the next "pure" Investor action?

In our game, we have played with "Investor" as the answer to question 1 and "Before Production" as the answer to question 2. This proves to be particularly chaotic... or leads to analysis paralysis, where noone crosses the Investor spot if not controlling the Investor card.

Thank you for your advice,

Jean "John" Michalski
 
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Nick Fisk
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Stoke on Trent
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Quote:
1. Production or Investor first?
What is played first? Production or Investor? The rules seem to hint that the Investor action is played first, or at least phases 2 and 3 of the Investor action, hence skipping the revenue distribution.


Production first.

It is in the rules (can't remember exactly where) a little later than you would expect it to be.

It's always the action landed on, then Investor if it was passed.


Quote:
2. Change of control before Production?
Supposing the above question is answered by "Investor", the order of investors is:
1. Player B because he has the Investor card
2. Player C because he controls no nation
(Player A has no right to issue bonds)
Supposing player B upgrades his French 2M bond to a 12M bond, while player C issues the 2M bond to France again, we reach a situation where player B has now become the largest creditor of France.
When does France "move" from the control of player A to the control of player B? Before the Production action occurs? After Production has occurred? In the next "pure" Investor action?


No longer valid, as it's production first

The change of control is at the very end of the Investor phase, therefore the last thing in the turn. That way, anyone who loses a country does NOT get to invest this turn (and that's the rule WE played wrong!)


N.

EDIT: Found the paragraph. It's at the end of the first paragraph in the "Investor" chapter:

Quote:
In this case, the action determined by the space landed on is completed first.

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David Norman
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Another question on change of control which hasn't come up yet in games I've played, but I'm sure it will...

Player A has the Italian 9M bond and the Italian flag.
Player B has the Italian 2M and 6M bonds and no flags.
Player C has no Italian Bonds, but has the Investor Chit.

A player moves past Investor on the Rondel.
Player C buys the Italian 12M bond (his only Italian Bond).
Player B buys the Italian 4M bond (making 12M total).

Who gets the Italian flag?

David.
 
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Ralph H. Anderson
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OK - first part of my thoughts on this answer.

The rules clearly state that if you TIE for most investment it is not enough to take the flag. So what we have to establish is who gets the flag first.

Starting with the current holder of the investor card purchases go in clockwise order - the rules state this explicitly. The first player that got to 12 million would be the new possessor of the flag and the second player who reached 12 million that turn would be the person who ties which is not sufficient to take the flag.

Summary
Investor purchases, then clockwise around those without any flags purchase.
After all purchases at end of turn check for flag change of ownership using the same start position and turn order as the purchases. First to have purchased wins if there is a tie.

That is how I would resolve it and I can think of no other reasonable way. This is also supported by similar examples of play in the rules.

DragonCat
 
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David Norman
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DragonCat wrote:
OK - first part of my thoughts on this answer.

The rules clearly state that if you TIE for most investment it is not enough to take the flag. So what we have to establish is who gets the flag first.

Starting with the current holder of the investor card purchases go in clockwise order - the rules state this explicitly. The first player that got to 12 million would be the new possessor of the flag and the second player who reached 12 million that turn would be the person who ties which is not sufficient to take the flag.

Summary
Investor purchases, then clockwise around those without any flags purchase.
After all purchases at end of turn check for flag change of ownership using the same start position and turn order as the purchases. First to have purchased wins if there is a tie.

That is how I would resolve it and I can think of no other reasonable way. This is also supported by similar examples of play in the rules.

DragonCat


It's certainly not the only way it could be resolved...

Another possible tiebreaker is the player with the single largest Bond in that country.

Alternatively, it could be resolved in the same way as province ownership is - if neither player has the highest value (ties not counting), then neither can take the flag, and so it stays where it is! This may seem counter-intuitive, but it is what the rules say!

David.
 
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Curt Carpenter
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I see no reason for turn order to have anything to do with it. Sure, the rules specify that bonds are purchased in turn order, but that's just to provide some order, and not have simultaneous chaotic investing. More importantly, the rules also clearly state that no check is made on bond holdings until AFTER everyone (who is eligible) has had a chance to purchase bonds. To assume ownership based on turn order is to impoase a memory on the game state. Yuck.

I like the largest bond breaking the tie.
 
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