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David F
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As a user that sometimes looks up old rules threads for a question and gets confused when the answer is a complicated debate, especially if somebody gets thumbed a lot and we later find out he/she had the wrong answer due to the new FAQ...

I would like the ability for us to vote to X replies in the Rules forums, and hide them from other users. It would be like the red X now, except it does not hurt the helpful reply-er's reputation at all.
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How do we insure that the person who uses the red X is right? There are disagreements from time to time, when rules are unclear, and I'd hate to see the use of red X to push an unproven agenda.

I think that when rulings change after new information appears, it is usually clear in the context of the thread.
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Yeah, I'm with Sphere, though it's a very interesting suggestion, David. I do like more organic ways for the community to highlight the correct answer. I think it's potentially pretty useful to see misinterpretations as they could appear again and FAQ files and further editions of rule books should be able to make note of rules points which have resulted in obvious confusion.

I agree that it can be frustrating to see incorrect answers lying there, though...in a more perfect BGG, when users found themselves to be wrong later they would always do strikethroughs and edits on their former posts.
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selwyth wrote:
I would like the ability for us to vote to X replies in the Rules forums, and hide them from other users. It would be like the red X now, except it does not hurt the helpful reply-er's reputation at all.

A mechanism that already exists is designed to work in the opposite direction. A strong supply of Green Thumbs to the correct answer tells the story. Even some GeekGold.

and "does not hurt the helpful reply-er's reputation at all"

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David F
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Not everybody thumbs. Android: Netrunner forums are especially stingy with thumbs

Sphere, it won't be hidden from just 1 person's input. I mean it to function exactly how X'ing posts happens now (i.e. needs some threshold for the post to be hidden), except it doesn't hurt the user's reputation at all.
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James
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Collection of correct answers
I think this is a symptom of a larger problem: when there are too many posts in a forum to easily review the headers and see which threads apply to your current question (and which of those has more thumbs or 'correction' mentioned in the title).*

This is exasperated when users come in see more threads than they care to review and post new threads that ask questions that have already been answered. Once the forum has crossed that size threshold, there is no turning back. If the game is popular, there will soon be pages of repeatetive, poorly titled question threads. The search function is your friend, but sometimes it is difficult to be confidential that you have found a complete and accurate answer to your question.

When the rules forum is in such a state, my preferred solution is a master FAQ thread summarizes the questions and answers, with links to best post(s) containing the full answer (hopefully from the game designer).

Some way to bump such a thread to the top without adding a silly 'bump' post would be nice.


*Also the problem of games being released before their rulebooks and card text have been examined for clarity and completeness by someone who was NOT intimately involved in the design and play testing.
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Honor wrote:
When the rules forum is in such a state, my preferred solution is a master FAQ thread summarizes the questions and answers, with links to best post(s) containing the full answer (hopefully from the game designer).

I've approached it from the opposite direction, attempting to prevent the rules forums from reaching that state in the first place: [CLOSED] Campaign to make the rules folders more useful (119 game folders adopted, 807 title changes documented)

Honor wrote:
Some way to bump such a thread to the top without adding a silly 'bump' post would be nice.

You can do that to some degree in the game page's forum summary by selecting 'rules' and 'hot'. The highly thumbed threads bubble to the top, and those tend to be the ones that have important rulings.
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selwyth wrote:
Sphere, it won't be hidden from just 1 person's input. I mean it to function exactly how X'ing posts happens now (i.e. needs some threshold for the post to be hidden), except it doesn't hurt the user's reputation at all.

We're social creatures, which I think can lead to different conclusions. When a debate about how a rule should be interpreted becomes heated, groups coalesce and mob mentality takes over. In such a situation, red Xs would fly.

And while I'm not concerned about hurting a user's reputation - people will form their own impressions about that based on body of work - I don't understand why having your statements hidden because they are red-Xed as wrong wouldn't be a mark against you. It wouldn't take too many of those for people to think "ah, it's that guy" when seeing other posts.
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Note that for a great debate (many thumbs) of a rule that is no longer true (possibly both sides interpretation is wrong by current ROW), the subject line could be edited to include [Historical] or [obsolete] or in Pandemic [1st edition] or in Magic [pre-Legends].

The OP can edit his/her post to link to a more current (correct) thread.
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David F
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Sphere wrote:
selwyth wrote:
Sphere, it won't be hidden from just 1 person's input. I mean it to function exactly how X'ing posts happens now (i.e. needs some threshold for the post to be hidden), except it doesn't hurt the user's reputation at all.

We're social creatures, which I think can lead to different conclusions. When a debate about how a rule should be interpreted becomes heated, groups coalesce and mob mentality takes over. In such a situation, red Xs would fly.

And while I'm not concerned about hurting a user's reputation - people will form their own impressions about that based on body of work - I don't understand why having your statements hidden because they are red-Xed as wrong wouldn't be a mark against you. It wouldn't take too many of those for people to think "ah, it's that guy" when seeing other posts.


Huh? I wouldn't start stalking some people and thinking 'hey this user tends to answer rules questions wrongly'.

It's a much simpler simpler thing that I'm saying. Take this rules thread: Contraband Takes Up Cargo Space?. The first reply is wrong. The second reply is correct. I would like the first reply to be hidden. If the forums were set up such that thumbs were used for one purpose and one purpose only: to vote how useful an answer is, then sure, use thumbs. But I'm asking for a specific system to hide non-useful or wrong answers.

Take the Campaign to Make Rules Folders More Useful: would you like the adopter to ask people who made wrong rulings to go back and edit or strike out their reply? If so, then let's groupvote it down and hide it.
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Honor wrote:
When the rules forum is in such a state, my preferred solution is a master FAQ thread summarizes the questions and answers, with links to best post(s) containing the full answer (hopefully from the game designer).

Better than a FAQ thread (which itself tends to become sprawling and end up with the same problem which the OP describes, unless it's all in the original post and then it depends on a single user who might disappear or even - as happens all too often - delete their account and delete all their content), a wiki page FAQ (which interested community members collectively maintain) is my preference/recommendation. (It can be linked to on the game's Description.)

See List of game FAQs, for instance Power Grid FAQ is a good extensive example.
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selwyth wrote:
Take the Campaign to Make Rules Folders More Useful: would you like the adopter to ask people who made wrong rulings to go back and edit or strike out their reply? If so, then let's groupvote it down and hide it.

Even if I thought groupvoting was a great idea, I wouldn't change the goals of the campaign, which was set up to do one thing and one thing only: educate people about the value of useful thread titles when asking rules questions.
 
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selwyth wrote:
It's a much simpler simpler thing that I'm saying. Take this rules thread: Contraband Takes Up Cargo Space?. The first reply is wrong. The second reply is correct. I would like the first reply to be hidden.

I think it would be best if the original poster edits his rules question to add something like "answered by xyz: it's that way".
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David F
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So nearly every user in this thread has highlighted the importance of convincing some reply-er or user to do something.

And that's why I put forth this suggestion. It is difficult/troublesome to get other users to do something, not merely on their end, but on a 'not worth it' level on my end ("Please remember to delete your wrong reply in case it confuses anybody else" or "Could you strike out the confusing part for the benefit of future users?"0. That is why I am asking for a very specific system to moderate replies in the very specific Rules sub-forums.

In my ideal world, a user asks a question, *1* reply shows up below, or more than 1 if the other 2 flesh out and build upon that answer. That's it. The other replies have been collapsed by default.
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David F
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The model here is StackOverflow, Quora and any other question-answer site (which the Rules subforums are). When I ask a question on there, a moderator* edits my question for clarity if it's not specific enough or not using the right terms. Users answer. Answers with the most upvotes appear first. An answer can be 'accepted' by the asker, which would be the ultimate stamp of approval.

* Moderators earn the right through lifetime upvotes, which is another transferable suggestion here since it's impossible for a few moderators to be dialed in to the rules questions of so many games.

I'm not going out and asking to copy SO's model from the get-go for our Rules forums. I'm asking for a simple hack: to at least groupvote to hide the replies that are 100% wrong via simple click instead of, y'know, somebody actually taking time out to geekmail somebody to ask him/her to correct something.
 
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Michael Dart
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It'd certainly be interesting to see how it worked for a few carefully selected rules forums as a pilot. Do it in a quickly hacked together way without worrying too much about polish. Tease out what the BGG-specific pros and cons would be in a limited environment.

And because it's the kind of change that's concerned with layout of content (promoting the right answer to the top of page, hiding clearly incorrect answers) rather than changing the content itself, it needn't be difficult to back out.

I think there's value in it. I'd be surprised if rules clarifications weren't one of the primary use-cases of the site, so it should be made as easy as possible. But I know how limited the coding time is for the developers. Particularly if they're already spending it redesigning the game entry pages. It's easy to suggest possible improvements but more difficult to code and manage the change of them. meeple
 
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This is a bit similar to having a ay to mod the question title line in rules sub-forums. So I fully agree; I also think that special features need to be there: The ability to file a correction for a questions title line that doesn't say anything, and some special moderation for the answers.
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selwyth wrote:
I would like the ability for us to vote to X replies in the Rules forums, and hide them from other users. It would be like the red X now, except it does not hurt the helpful reply-er's reputation at all.

This is a solved problem (part of a larger problem, really), which BGG refuses to address. If it were possible to downvote posts, and especially of there were a legitimate and empowering reputation system for users, the problem would "solve itself".
 
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Aldaron wrote:
selwyth wrote:
I would like the ability for us to vote to X replies in the Rules forums, and hide them from other users. It would be like the red X now, except it does not hurt the helpful reply-er's reputation at all.

This is a solved problem (part of a larger problem, really), which BGG refuses to address. If it were possible to downvote posts, and especially of there were a legitimate and empowering reputation system for users, the problem would "solve itself".


Thumbs down was the worst feature ever implemented in BGG. It became an unbelievably hostile environment where people were afraid to post.
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Geosphere wrote:
Thumbs down was the worst feature ever implemented in BGG. It became an unbelievably hostile environment where people were afraid to post.

That's the often repeated view that prevents the feature from being implemented and keeps the accuracy and relevance of information here so low. It's to bad that this groundless fear is so widely held.
 
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Aldaron wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
Thumbs down was the worst feature ever implemented in BGG. It became an unbelievably hostile environment where people were afraid to post.

That's the often repeated view that prevents the feature from being implemented and keeps the accuracy and relevance of information here so low. It's to bad that this groundless fear is so widely held.


Guess you weren't around for Ninja Galaxy...

I actually had threats made against my family.

In the end, the entire entry was wiped out, with hundreds of comments and tons of users thumbing things up and down.
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Geosphere wrote:
In the end, the entire entry was wiped out, with hundreds of comments and tons of users thumbing things up and down.

There will always be horror stories (its the Web after all), but net, downvoting is an excellent feature, especially when incorporated into the platform in an effective way, as the Stack Exchange family of sites has managed to do. For example, among other aspects such as monitoring heavy or spite downvoting, downvoting is a privilege only acquired at certain reputation levels, and downvoting actually costs the downvoter reputation. (Additionally, users with high reputation can edit and even delete questions and answers, to improve accuracy and relevance.)
 
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Aldaron wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
In the end, the entire entry was wiped out, with hundreds of comments and tons of users thumbing things up and down.

There will always be horror stories (its the Web after all), but net, downvoting is an excellent feature, especially when incorporated into the platform in an effective way, as the Stack Exchange family of sites has managed to do. For example, among other aspects such as monitoring heavy or spite downvoting, downvoting is a privilege only acquired at certain reputation levels, and downvoting actually costs the downvoter reputation. (Additionally, users with high reputation can edit and even delete questions and answers, to improve accuracy and relevance.)

It seems obvious to me that, for better or worse, Stack Exchange and BGG are 2 quite different online communities with different purposes.

Stack Exchange is: Someone asks a question with fairly objective possible answers, people give answers, and the best answers are voted up (and appear sooner/higher on the page) and the terrible answers are voted down (and appear lower/later on the page)."

BGG is an online discussion forum, which just happens to include Rules forums. And even rules threads often don't follow a "strictly business" Stack Exchange style model, but often turn into general discussions like any other BGG thread - and also comments often quote other comments, so re-ordering comments based on thumbs, as Stack Exchange does, would be confusing.

If BGG wanted to make the Rules forums work more like Stack Exchange, I think it would require a lot more work than merely adding thumbs down to comments and hiding low-rated comments. (More work technically as well as more work in terms of educating the very large community about how it works, both technically and "socially".) Such a system really shouldn't be a "forum" any more, as a BGG forum simply works qualitatively differently from Stack Exchange (both technically and socially).
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David F
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Geosphere wrote:
Aldaron wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
Thumbs down was the worst feature ever implemented in BGG. It became an unbelievably hostile environment where people were afraid to post.

That's the often repeated view that prevents the feature from being implemented and keeps the accuracy and relevance of information here so low. It's to bad that this groundless fear is so widely held.


Guess you weren't around for Ninja Galaxy...

I actually had threats made against my family.

In the end, the entire entry was wiped out, with hundreds of comments and tons of users thumbing things up and down.


I support thumbs down... for Rules Forums only.
 
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Aldaron wrote:
There will always be horror stories (its the Web after all), but net, downvoting is an excellent feature, especially when incorporated into the platform in an effective way, as the Stack Exchange family of sites has managed to do. For example, among other aspects such as monitoring heavy or spite downvoting, downvoting is a privilege only acquired at certain reputation levels, and downvoting actually costs the downvoter reputation. (Additionally, users with high reputation can edit and even delete questions and answers, to improve accuracy and relevance.)


Stack Exchange, that is that group of websites that ruthless close any question a real person would have (for some technical reason), despite having 3 excellent answers already; you're holding up that draconian model for BGG?

And "anybody with enough rep" can edit my question (and put words in my mouth) instead of only a select group of mods hand-picked by the admins? That is contrary to BGG's stance that I own my own content. We have a wiki section for where I want to put up something rough, and someone else adds and clarifies, and more people come in, and someone finally touches up the grammar and hotlinks things... but that isn't a forum. I make original work in a wiki when I'm high on my belief in mankind.

I've been peer-pressured into deleting content here; and then called a troll for doing so. I've had an admin edit my subject line and close my topic when we were waiting for input from the publisher we were have the discussion with in that very topic, here. In other places I've had a carefully thought out, specific subject line ruined into "how do I burn a cd" and got 12 answers of burning MP3s as data onto disc when my question was specifically to avoid those worthless answers and find out how to burn an audio CD.

< huff > < huff > < huff >

Okay.

I'm not opposed to making things better, but... nope I'm not going to be able to come up with something intelligent/senseable to finish this sentence at this time.
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