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Warhammer 40,000: Conquest» Forums » General

Subject: How does one... Eldar? rss

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Michael Condon
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We played our first game with Eldar last night, and it didn't go well, to say the least.

I was Eldar with a 'don't know what I'm doing' Flying dude-with-weird-name deck, and my wife was playing a SM 'Why are these guys so good?' Cato deck.

So with all the trickery and mobile and whatnot, I won a LOT of command struggles. I had cards like crazy, a whole pile of resources at one point, and just dominated pretty much all the command..

...and nothing else.

I think I ended up with a single planet by the time we were at the 6th. (One got ignored, the rest weren't enough for win).

These guys seem like they have a pretty good amount of tools at their disposal, but when they can't translate those tools into 'get off my planet' damage, then what good are they?

Am I FORCED to splash Tau or something in there to give it some teeth?

I'm positive there's some guidelines I'm missing for being a somewhat competent Eldar player. I figured I'd reach out for solutions.

Thanks.
 
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kergen ramirez
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First question how many core sets and war packs do you have?

Eldar are pretty week out of the single core set box with Kith and Cato being the strongest.
 
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Michael Schwarz
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Okay, with a major caveat: As with nearly every other 40k property, I get how to play Eldar on a conceptual level, I'm just not particularly good at it. The only Eldar faction I enjoyed playing was in Dawn of War 2: Retribution, so I don't get much practice, and Conquest is no exception.

The basic concept with the faction is that individual units are very specialized. You can't simply throw them at your opponent and hope for the best, the way you can with, well, Marines. This carries over into Conquest with some weirdness.

The main concept is to never allow your opponent to engage on their terms. Cato makes this tricky because the Marines are very aggressive, but you should still be able to control when and where you're actually fighting.

Starbane focuses on hitting exhausted units, and his command cadre hit for five damage if your opponent already attacked with that unit.

Baharroth has a heavy focus on mobile, so he can either slip away from your opponent's units, or chase them down.

If your opponent does manage to force you into combat someplace you don't want to be, the Craftworld Gates will get your most important units out safely. This assumes you've been winning command struggles and can redeploy them.

After that, it's just an issue of identifying which units offer the right tools to deal with your opponent.

Eldar get a rather strong ranged options out of the box with the Altansar Rangers, which can wreck an enemy warlord if Cato is dumb enough to come after you directly. Units like the Shrouded Harlequin and Silvered Blade Avengers will make sure that Starbane's Council can carve up enemy units before they're able to respond. There are also a lot of Eldar that focus heavily on health or damage. Keep them straight, and don't let your opponent get the chance to attack the ones without health.

Finally, keep an eye on the events. Cards like Doom are fantastic if your headquarters is mostly empty (and you didn't send your units to the first planet) but your opponent's is clogged up from winning the first planet last turn. Another nasty trick is that Seer's Exodus can simply pull your Warlord and their friendly units back to HQ before your opponent can get a shot at them. Again, don't fight if you're not controlling when and where. Also, don't be afraid to use Gift of Isha to ambush your opponent. If you actually want the unit back from your discard pile, you can always Craftworld Gate them away before the battle phase ends, but the ability to drop a fairly hefty unit on your opponent for 2 resources, especially after they just spent time and energy getting rid of them can be a fantastic psychological blow.
 
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Michael Condon
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I meant to disclose, but forgot:

Two Core sets, 1 of every faction pack released thus far EXCEPT Scourge. (Waiting on the reprint.)

I did attempt to pick my fights sparingly, as I had the time with the way the planets laid out. I drew one of my two 'Doom's entirely too late. I did get to Craftworld out of dodge once.

The SM 'reduce incoming damage by 1' units became a bit of a pain. I couldn't ever hit them hard enough to matter. And they were standing in the way of Librarians. :/

The board became such that even Cato's middling units were too much for me. I need to reconstruct the deck with some additional ranged options I guess. I'll go into the next build with the understanding of the highly specialized units and attempt to think of the situations that will arise.

And I'm really hoping I can stick with Baharroth.
 
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Michael Schwarz
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roufus wrote:
The SM 'reduce incoming damage by 1' units became a bit of a pain. I couldn't ever hit them hard enough to matter. And they were standing in the way of Librarians. :/


Those guys shouldn't be much of a problem for Eldar. The Blood Angel Veterans ability turns off when they're exhausted, and Eldar have a lot of tools to exhaust enemy units.

roufus wrote:
The board became such that even Cato's middling units were too much for me.


Given that Sicarius's Chosen only triggers on deploy, it makes Craftworld gate a perfect middle finger to them, since they basically just let you heal and reposition the unit. Also, Slumbering Gardens should shut down Sicarius's Chosen pretty solidly.

roufus wrote:
And I'm really hoping I can stick with Baharroth.


Yeah, the biggest difference between Baharroth and Starbane is that the former is, really, an assassin. In the same style as Blackmane. You drop his Hawks on the table, and if your opponent makes the mistake of committing adjacent to him, you can move all your mobile units over to snuff him.

If you're playing Baharroth, don't worry about actually capturing planets. Find your opponent's Warlord and kill them.

Starbane is a lot trickier. He focuses on hitting exhausted units and, in my opinion, he's not quite there yet. The exhaust options for Eldar are a little too limited at this point. If he was an IG, then it would be hilariously broken in combination with suppressing fire and preemptive barrage. (EDIT: I should say, exhausting stray units isn't the problem. It's enough to make the Blood Angel Veterans a substantially lower threat. The problem is exhausting enough to make Starbane's Council really shine.)

But, with Starbane it's about selectively picking apart your opponent, he's a farseer, it makes sense, sorta. Eldar Autarchs are about sudden, unexpected, surprise, murder parties, and everyone's invited, especially if they don't want to be.

EDIT 1: Derped the Quote tags.
EDIT 2: Clarification.
 
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Rayne Smith
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I would like to start by saying that Eldar probably isn't the best faction for a first game and Baharroth (mobile warlord) even more so. You should give Eldorath a try, he's a lot easier to wrap your head around.

It's hard to give a lot of advice without seeing a decklist. Eldar are a control faction and take a bit more finesse to play. Baharroth is a bit harder to play, but (as you stated) should be able to dominate the command struggle.

Since you said you were dominating command, but still lost, I'm a bit concerned that you may have too many units that focus on command and not enough on combat. You really want to see units like the Warlock Destructor, Iyanden Wraithguard, Wildrider Squadron, or Black Guardians (this on is in the Scourge). Even though a lot of your units don't necessarily swing for a lot, you do have access to Empower which can really turn the tide of a battle.

I also do not recommend just ignoring capturing planets, unless you get lucky on the planet flop, that is a good way to lose almost every game. I do agree that Baharroth is more of a Warlord killer, but against a skilled opponent, that is a difficult way to win the game. SM are actually probably Eldar's most difficult matchup at the moment, but Eldar are actually in a very strong spot with the current card pool, so keep playing them and keeping tinkering with your decks until we get something that works well.
 
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Michael Condon
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A few updates:

1) That wasn't our first game, but it was our first Eldar game. I have a somewhat competent Chaos/SM/Ork/AM deck. We're introducing them into our own 'in house' meta over time. (I'm explaining the lore to the wife as we go.)

2) I may have gotten a rule wrong. Someone suggested that the 'reaction' abilities don't work if the unit with them is exhausted. I was playing it that it was still able to be reacted against unless the reaction itself required exhausting the unit. Are we wrong in this? Are ALL reactions basically null and void on exhausted units? (Even 'forced' ones?) That would change the matchups quite a bit.

Please help me get this rule right. (The gameplay implications are enormous.) What *exactly* do exhausted units lose when exhausted (aside from Command)?

3) Decklist! (Don't laugh.)

9 Baharroth & Co

Units
2 Beil-Tan Guardians
3 Eldar Survivalist
2 Altansar Rangers
2 Eldrich Corsair
2 Wildrider Squadron
2 Soaring Falcon
3 Shrouded Harequin
2 Spiritseer Erathal
1 Wailing Wraithfighter
1 Mighty Wraithknight
2 Warlock Destructor
2 Biel-Tan Warp Spiders
2 Iyanden Wraithguard

Others
2 Superiority
2 Doom
2 Nullify
3 Foretell
2 Starcannon
2 Craftworld Gate
2 Gift of Isha
1 Corsair Trading Port

The general idea was to snipe, move, heal etc. But coming against the slowly rising force that I couldn't cut down the numbers of in time... game over.



 
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Rayne Smith
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1) Sorry, I misunderstood exactly what you were saying when you said it was your first game with Eldar.

2) reactions still happen, even when exhausted (unless they require you to exhaust). If you're talking about the comments about the Blood Angels Veteran, his ability specifically states that it didn't week when he's exhausted.

3) The decklist doesn't look too bad at first glance. A few things I would recommend are to add Empower to the deck, get a 3rd warlock destructor into the deck. If you aren't against adding Tau cards ion rifle would help add some firepower. I'll try and give a better response to this later when I'm not typing it on a phone.
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Michael Schwarz
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roufus wrote:
2) I may have gotten a rule wrong. Someone suggested that the 'reaction' abilities don't work if the unit with them is exhausted. I was playing it that it was still able to be reacted against unless the reaction itself required exhausting the unit. Are we wrong in this? Are ALL reactions basically null and void on exhausted units? (Even 'forced' ones?) That would change the matchups quite a bit.


No, it's specifically the Blood Angel Veteran. When it's ready it has a reaction that will let you ignore the first point of damage assigned to it. When it's exhausted, that ability shuts down, and you can damage it normally.

There's a few cards in the game, the Vectored Vyper Squadron comes to mind as another example, that will gain new abilities when certain conditions are met.

The Blood Angel Veterans make for some pretty formidable defenders, but they're a pain to micromanage in my opinion. Also, if you just need to brute force them down, I'd suggest hitting with something that will one shot them. If you're hitting one once it can soak up 4 power without dying. If you just keep trying to hit it with power 2 units, you'll sink 6 damage into it for the same result.

This is where some of the Eldar cards become really tricky for a Marine Player. You're probably fielding units weak enough that the Blood Angel Vets can one shot them, but, if they do attack they're sacrificing their defensive ability. So they can either try slapping you down before you can kill them, waste their Honored Librarian on a 2hp unit, or risk sacrificing their Veteran to much weaker units in order to get rid of the unit that will snuff them.
 
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Michael Schwarz
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Kaic wrote:
I also do not recommend just ignoring capturing planets, unless you get lucky on the planet flop, that is a good way to lose almost every game. I do agree that Baharroth is more of a Warlord killer, but against a skilled opponent, that is a difficult way to win the game. SM are actually probably Eldar's most difficult matchup at the moment, but Eldar are actually in a very strong spot with the current card pool, so keep playing them and keeping tinkering with your decks until we get something that works well.


Yeah, that was really poor phrasing on my part.
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Rayne Smith
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Ok, time for a more in depth response to #3. First off, you might consider checking out this thread on cargamedb. Cargamedb's forums in general are more active than BGG for Conquest so you would probably get better responses there as well.

Eldar are actually held back by fewer cores a bit more than some of the other factions, so that is unfortunately going to hold you back a bit. For example, having access to only 2 Gift of Isha (one of the best cards in the game) really hurts. Since this list only has Eldar I'm going to assume you want to stick to a single faction, but I'll post an allied list below that would work well too.

Recommended changes to current deck.
-2 Craftworld Gate: You don't really have any great targets for this and it really doesn't do much for Eldar (this would actually be an amazing Dark Eldar card)
-2 Superiority: You have a pretty strong command presence, this card just feels like overkill
-1 Wailing Wraithfighter: 6 resources is really expensive for a unit, and Mighty Wraithknight is pretty much better in every way.
-1 Spiritseer Erathal: His ability isn't that great, his best use is to exhaust for using Nullify. 1 copy should be plenty since you don't want to find 2 of him.

+3 Empower: This card is absolutely amazing in Eldar. Even if you have trouble paying the 3 cost, it's still 2 shields. This card wins games.
+1 Warlock Destructor: This is the best Eldar unit, no reason not to have 3
+1 Eldritch Corsair: This is a good card, but I would personally replace it with Black Guardians once you get The Scourge.
+1 Might Wraithknight: I normally don't run very many of these expensive units, but it's your best target for Starcannon and Gift of Isha. So, I'm just going to trade the Wraithfighter for a 2nd one of these.

Other cards to consider: Banshee Power Sword, you can discard your Wraithknight to use Gift of Isha, it's a nice combo. Void Pirate, you could trade out your eldar survivalists for Void pirates. They tend to be less of a target for Warlord sniping and they are cheaper. Promotion, I'm not really a big fan of Starcannon, but I left it in there since you have Wraithknight, you could consider trading it for Promotion though.

In case you're not against allies, I'll give you a list with Dark Eldar since I'm partial to them:

Deck Created with CardGameDB.com Warhammer 40,000: Conquest Deckbuilder


Total Cards: (50)

Warlord:
1x *Baharroth (Descendants of Isha)


Army Unit: (31)
4x Baharroth’s Hawks (Descendants of Isha)
2x Biel-Tan Guardians (Core Set)
3x Eldar Survivalist (Core Set)
2x Altansar Rangers (Core Set)
1x Spiritseer Erathal (Core Set)
3x Warlock Destructor (Gift of the Ethereals)
2x Biel-Tan Warp Spiders (Core Set)
2x Wildrider Squadron (Core Set)
2x Soaring Falcon (Core Set)
2x Iyanden Wraithguard (Core Set)
2x Baleful Mandrake (Core Set)
3x Bloodied Reavers (Zogwort's Curse)
1x Void Pirate (Core Set)
2x Kabalite Strike Force (Core Set)

Attachment: (1)
1x The Shining Blade (Descendants of Isha)

Event: (16)
2x Cry of the Wind (Descendants of Isha)
2x Doom (Core Set)
3x Foretell (Gift of the Ethereals)
2x Gift of Isha (Core Set)
2x Nullify (Core Set)
3x Empower (The Howl of Blackmane)
2x Archon’s Terror (Core Set)

Support: (2)
1x Banner of the Ashen Sky (Descendants of Isha)
1x Corsair Trading Port (Core Set)

I'm using Dark Eldar to give some extra control elements and to help strengthen some of Eldar's weaknesses. Blooded Reavers are almost as good as Eldritch Corsairs, but they're cheaper, so that was an easy trade. A lot of people don't like Kabalite Strike force, but swarms are one of the biggest problems for Eldar, aoe helps to deal with that. Archon's terror is a strong control card for combat and will help with combat.
 
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Michael Condon
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I've made some changes based on the suggestions. (I actually had changed it prior to JSmith's suggestions.) I actually took *out* cards that he suggested were absolutely integral. Whoopsy.

But anyway, this is what I ended up with (thus far, as Scourge and more core set cards are in the mail.)

9x Baharroth & Co.

3x Eldar Survivalist. (I may switch this over with more testing, to see if I'll go Rouge Trader or Void Pirate.)

3x Warlock Destructor (I originally attempted to stay away from these 'money sync cards' as I'm typically a resource-minded player, including resource attack/deny if a game allows it.)

3x Shrouded Harlequin (Not sure the utility with this build, but we'll see)

2x Biel-Tan Warp Spiders (Again, need to test utility.)

1x Spiritseer Erathal (For Nullify)

2x Wildrider Squadron (Really like this unit)

2x Iyanden Wraithguard (Leap-Frog tactic with initiative, or Gift of Isha)

2x Mighty Wraithknight (Need at least a few heavy hitters, and I like his 'trick')

2x Biel-Tan Guardians (Wish I had 1 more. I will soon)

2x Eldritch Corsair (Kind of middling/cost, but we'll see)

2x Altansar Rangers (Solid all around.)

2x Swordwind Farseer (Figured I needed a digger)

1x Corsair Trading Port (More of a placeholder)

2x Gift of Isha (Hopefully it'll work better than it did on the first test-flight)

2x Doom (Ditto from above; never got the opportunity the first go round.)

3x Foretell (We'll see. On the fence.)

3x Empower (Due to overwhelming suggestions.)

2x Banshee Power Sword (Couldn't find my second one at first.)

1x Starcannon (less 1 due to lessing the amount of vehicles.)

2x Nullify (Becasue you always need to nullify.)


Now, I'm warming up to the idea of co-mingling factions, especially to give this build a ion rifle or something. The problem with this specific build is... I haven't played either of this faction's decks yet. They're the last two left to try. I'll attempt to regigger a bit when I see how they all 'tick'.

 
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Michael Schwarz
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roufus wrote:
I've made some changes based on the suggestions. (I actually had changed it prior to JSmith's suggestions.) I actually took *out* cards that he suggested were absolutely integral. Whoopsy.


It happens to the best of us. My first impression of Gift of Isha was, "what is this garbage?" But, it's actually a really powerful recursion effect, and can be comboed into Craftworld Gate to retrieve cards and get off some free shots.

The really important thing to understand about Gift of Isha is that it can be used to add cards to a planet mid-combat, which is hilariously powerful.

Popping a Wraithknight mid-combat with Gift of Isha is a horrifying concept, especially if you're fielding a lot of Spirit units.

roufus wrote:
But anyway, this is what I ended up with (thus far, as Scourge and more core set cards are in the mail.)


I checked, Scourge adds one nice Eldar Unit. Black Guardians are cost 2, power 2, health 4, with no command icons or text. Nothing special, but cheap and durable.

The Event and Support aren't really worth it yet. Maybe someday, but not now.
 
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Rayne Smith
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I pretty much agree with almost everything you've said here. Though I do have one comment that I would like to address.

roufus wrote:
3x Warlock Destructor (I originally attempted to stay away from these 'money sync cards' as I'm typically a resource-minded player, including resource attack/deny if a game allows it.)


I feel that you may be viewing these units in the wrong light. I rarely pay the upkeep on this unit. He's an amazing powerhouse to throw down on the first planet towards the end of your deployment that is hard for your opponent to deal with. This unit has won me more battles than I can count, especially if I can throw down an Empower or use Gift of Isha to bring it back once it's killed.

roufus wrote:
Now, I'm warming up to the idea of co-mingling factions, especially to give this build a ion rifle or something. The problem with this specific build is... I haven't played either of this faction's decks yet. They're the last two left to try. I'll attempt to regigger a bit when I see how they all 'tick'.


Dark Eldar card choke is my favorite deck. If you like resource denial type decks then you will probably like Dark Eldar. I still recommend Kith over Urien at the moment though. I have yet to get him to really work well.

 
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StarkeRealm wrote:
roufus wrote:
I've made some changes based on the suggestions. (I actually had changed it prior to JSmith's suggestions.) I actually took *out* cards that he suggested were absolutely integral. Whoopsy.


It happens to the best of us. My first impression of Gift of Isha was, "what is this garbage?" But, it's actually a really powerful recursion effect, and can be comboed into Craftworld Gate to retrieve cards and get off some free shots.

The really important thing to understand about Gift of Isha is that it can be used to add cards to a planet mid-combat, which is hilariously powerful.

Popping a Wraithknight mid-combat with Gift of Isha is a horrifying concept, especially if you're fielding a lot of Spirit units.


How did you KNOW? whistle cry


 
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Also, I have stumbled upon Cardgamedb fairly recently, but I haven't gotten past the war pack reviews and the fluff articles (those sweet, sweet fluff articles!)
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roufus wrote:
StarkeRealm wrote:
roufus wrote:
I've made some changes based on the suggestions. (I actually had changed it prior to JSmith's suggestions.) I actually took *out* cards that he suggested were absolutely integral. Whoopsy.


It happens to the best of us. My first impression of Gift of Isha was, "what is this garbage?" But, it's actually a really powerful recursion effect, and can be comboed into Craftworld Gate to retrieve cards and get off some free shots.

The really important thing to understand about Gift of Isha is that it can be used to add cards to a planet mid-combat, which is hilariously powerful.

Popping a Wraithknight mid-combat with Gift of Isha is a horrifying concept, especially if you're fielding a lot of Spirit units.


How did you KNOW? whistle cry




Two 3x auto includes for Eldar. Gift and Empower. You didn't have Empower on your list before, btw.

 
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Patrick Brennan
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roufus wrote:
Also, I have stumbled upon Cardgamedb fairly recently, but I haven't gotten past the war pack reviews and the fluff articles (those sweet, sweet fluff articles!)

If you haven't found them yet, in the cardgamedb forum, each warlord has a thread dedicated to it, throwing ideas around on how best to build a deck around it. It allows people to share what's worked, what hasn't, and they also show how decks have evolved as new warpacks have come out.
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Peter Mc
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Great thread and advice, thanks.

One question if I may here...what is the timing of Empower and the end of a battle and the planet ability? The rules say planet abilities are used "first" but it isn't clear first before what (or after what).

Example: an Eldar unit dies on 4 damage, but Empower keeps it alive just barely wit 4 damage inflicted on it, due to the card giving +1.

Eldar (with Empower) wins a battle at a planet that says "remove all damage from one unit".

What is the sequence?

Battle ends, empower disappears, unit dies because 4=4, planet ability wasted (or used elsewhere).

or

Battle is won but not technically over, planet ability used to remove 4 damage, unit lives, battle ends, empower disappears.
 
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Peter Mc
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And would that be any different if the unit in question was a warlord (the clarification on Warlords retreating at the end of the battle raises a timing issue for me).

Thanks for any advice.
 
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petermc wrote:
Great thread and advice, thanks.

One question if I may here...what is the timing of Empower and the end of a battle and the planet ability? The rules say planet abilities are used "first" but it isn't clear first before what (or after what).

Example: an Eldar unit dies on 4 damage, but Empower keeps it alive just barely wit 4 damage inflicted on it, due to the card giving +1.

Eldar (with Empower) wins a battle at a planet that says "remove all damage from one unit".

What is the sequence?

Battle ends, empower disappears, unit dies because 4=4, planet ability wasted (or used elsewhere).

or

Battle is won but not technically over, planet ability used to remove 4 damage, unit lives, battle ends, empower disappears.


I'm inclined to think the Battle ability triggers after the battle ends. Judging by the way 3.2.10 is laid out in the rules reference guide.

So, the battle ends, Empower wears off, and then you can trigger Iridial's ability and heal one of your units. But, your unit that expired along with Empower isn't a valid target anymore.

You could use Tense Negotiation to trigger Iridial's ability before combat ended, to heal your unit before the battle finished, if you wanted. And then use it again after the battle did end. But, that's the only way to make that work, I think.

I could be wrong about all of this, but that's what it looks like to me.
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petermc wrote:
Great thread and advice, thanks.

One question if I may here...what is the timing of Empower and the end of a battle and the planet ability? The rules say planet abilities are used "first" but it isn't clear first before what (or after what).

Example: an Eldar unit dies on 4 damage, but Empower keeps it alive just barely wit 4 damage inflicted on it, due to the card giving +1.

Eldar (with Empower) wins a battle at a planet that says "remove all damage from one unit".

What is the sequence?

Battle ends, empower disappears, unit dies because 4=4, planet ability wasted (or used elsewhere).

or

Battle is won but not technically over, planet ability used to remove 4 damage, unit lives, battle ends, empower disappears.


This link should answer all of your questions
http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/index.php?/topic/19367-card...
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Peter Mc
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Thanks to both.

FFG ruled, imo correctly, as follows:

1. Battle Ends
Quote:
(my addition here: so Empower goes away here)


2. Winner/loser is determined

3. Winner triggers battle ability

The "he may first" makes it tough to work out in practice, as the advanced member pointed out.

Maybe they should put this in the FAQ...or maybe they did and I missed it, but I checked there first.
 
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