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Subject: Outwit rss

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Vreston Pieston
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It is posted earlier on this board that when rolling dice the attacker goes first(though it's not "official").
BUT when rolling dice for Outwit(the third roll in a combat sequence) there's no attacker!Any player can achieve a KO,so who goes first?

My guess is the player with the initiative but I'd like to hear some other opinions too.
 
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Michael Denman
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Yes, it'd be the player with the initiative who rolls first on Outwit.
 
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Juhani Nurminen
Finland
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It doesn't matter at all, since outwit rolls have no effect when the players have a draw. The only reason I could think of why it would matter, is that you're playing with some whiny brat who would cry if he couldn't roll first.
 
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Anwar Dalati
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Tiavals wrote:
The only reason I could think of why it would matter, is that you're playing with some whiny brat who would cry if he couldn't roll first.


Well, then you are not thinking hard enough.

Say you have initiative and your opponent has only 1 die in outwit, as opposed to your 4. You roll the dice and... oh my... only 1 success! Now there's the question: Do you roll again, to ensure your success or just risk it, as the other guy only has 1 die and he's not very likely to beat you...

- Anwar
 
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Nils Cordes
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I think Outwit should be simultaneous. That is the only flaw there is in this game: It's missing two dice. Usually no one rolls with more than 5 dice. With ten dice it'd be possible for everyone to roll at the same time.
But since the whole reason behind outwit is the simultaneous rolling, even if one has to go first, you should agree that once somebody rolled, there's no re-rolling or using a special ability anymore. It has to be treated like a simultaneous roll.
At least that's how I interpreted the rules. Right?
 
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Nathaniel GOUSSET
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I would say WRONG.

There is many abilities that enable to reroll dice or change the number of dice rolled before your roll or after it. The order in wich the players roll is thus important.

The core rules doesnt specifically say that the player with the initiative roll first, BUT the Example of play clearly say so.
 
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Michael Denman
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tickbite wrote:
That is the only flaw there is in this game: It's missing two dice. Usually no one rolls with more than 5 dice. With ten dice it'd be possible for everyone to roll at the same time.


No. The rules clearly say you can never roll more than 8 dice and only having that many physically reinforces the rule. You never roll simultaneously, so it's not a problem. Should every player have their own pool of plot points to use so you don't have to share those either? That way lies madness...
 
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Nils Cordes
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Hm ...
Trump, what I meant was that you can roll with up to 5 dice at a time. You're allowed to roll with 8 but I haven't noticed a situation where you do during combat. So what could happen, during Outwit, is that two people roll with 5 dice each. But I see, the problem is with the simultaneous rolling:

I still believe that the whole point of OUTWIT is the simultaneous rolling (as opposed to attack and defense). Even if you don't roll at the same time, there is no rule that explains which player goes first.
It's true that in the example they roll after one another. But in the (English rules) example Avalanche just rolls after Human Torch without benefitting from rolling second.

I think it sounds a lot more convincing to roll simultaneously: Outwit means you've got to be smart beforehand. Hence, nobody should profit from rolling second during Outwit.

But again, that's how I interpreted it. I may indeed be wrong.
 
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Michael Denman
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I think the idea behind making players roll in order is to make the re-rolling and such more interesting. If I roll my Outwit dice first, do I stick with what I have or do I expend resources to add to my score? Do you end up rolling bad and I wasted my extra resources? If we rolled at the same time, there'd be no question of whether or not I needed a higher total or not. In the specific case of Outwit, it's an advantage to roll second because you'll know if you need anything extra. This probably helps the initiative swing back and forth instead of sticking with one side during the entire fight.
 
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Nils Cordes
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Trump wrote:
In the specific case of Outwit, it's an advantage to roll second because you'll know if you need anything extra. This probably helps the initiative swing back and forth instead of sticking with one side during the entire fight.


Okay, that sounds sensible. Although of course there are allys that help give you the initiative.
So, I take it everybody here on Gameboardgeek played the game without simultaneous rolling at Outwit? For me it just seemed to be obvious that after one player attacked, and then the other attacked, the third round was without the benefit for either one. You plan in advance and outwit your opponent (if only by a higher number of available dice).
Anyway, thanks for clearing that up.
 
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Daniel Becerra Aller
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Just for the record, I'm also plying with simultaneous Outwit rolls, from the very first game.

Also, we let use re-rolls or outcome modifiers AFTER seeing the opponent roll. I know it may be wrong, but we find that certain abilities/powers (eg Th Thing's Clobbering Time) would be worthless elsewhere.

Caedes
 
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Michael Denman
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Caedes wrote:
Just for the record, I'm also plying with simultaneous Outwit rolls, from the very first game. Also, we let use re-rolls or outcome modifiers AFTER seeing the opponent roll. I know it may be wrong, but we find that certain abilities/powers (eg Th Thing's Clobbering Time) would be worthless elsewhere.


So how do you handle it if both players can re-roll? Some type of simultaneous declaration? With the Thing, you make an educated guess as to whether or not your first roll is going to be sufficient. I don't see that as worthless at all. Basically, you are changing his power from something that requires thought into a no-brainer. Personally, I kind of want to do everything I can to favor thought over a dice-fest.
 
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Yiorgos Golfinopoulos
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Guys,Francesco the Game Designer has already posted on an earlier thread that rolls are NOT simultaneus.
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Michael Denman
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Boofus wrote:
Guys,Francesco the Game Designer has already posted on an earlier thread that rolls are NOT simultaneus.


Yeah, I know. I'm one of those crazy people who searches message bases for answers before I ask questions. shake
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Moisés Solé
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The FAQ now says Outwit is simultaneous.
 
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Alex Martinez
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Is it just me or is EVERYONE overthinking this game? Everyone keeps saying the rules aren't clear enough, but that's only because they're combing through them looking for problems.

Most every rule that's open to interpretation in Marvel Heroes is easy decided by a consistent house rule. After all, this isn't a game that has official tournaments or anything. It's just a game meant to be played at your home with friends. Hopefully, friends should be able to reach a simple agreement about possible rule interpretations.

For me, all rolls are considered simultaneous. This cuts down on the guess factor. If the Thing rolls lower than Juggernaut's Defense, then he's allowed to reroll after he sees the attack fails. Spider-Man gets to see his opponent's Fight roll before deciding if he'll discard a card to use his spider-sense. Doctor Doom can use his Battle Suit power after seeing whether his die roll qualifies, and so on. This might not be the official rule, but it's the way I play the game in my house, and as long as everyone agrees to it than what's the problem?

The point is that there is a world of difference between a gamebreaking rule interpretation and a personal preference ruling. Frankly, I don't care what the "official" rule is because it works for me.
 
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