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Subject: Useable/Unuseable sections of the map. rss

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Bryan Jensen
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The rules say for each player to choose a colored zone of the map. And that all zones chosen must be adjacent.

1. Does this then freeze the other colored sections of the map from being useable for the rest of the game?

2. Do we choose colored zones at beginning of the game--and then players must stick to their zone when building their first city during the first building round? Who chooses first if it is done at the game's beginning?

3. Or, does the game merely progress to the first building round without zones having been pre-decided? The first builder (the worst player) may then play into any one zone. Then subsequent players must build into separate, but adjacent zones as players that went before?

4. One is not stuck in a zone until Phase 2 correct? Can one build in their starting zone, but on a subsequent turn build into a neighboring zone without having first filled up all seven cities in their own zone? (I'd say yes, from my reading of the rules.)

5. And can someone build in two zones on their first building round, assuming they pay the appropriate connection costs?

6. I believe it is fine to jump or "leapfrog" cities if one gets blocked by just paying all connection cost(s) beyond the blocked city(ies)? If so such placed cities all still count toward the value of the size of network built, yes?

 
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Dave Eisen
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Choosing different regions only determines what parts of the map are being used. Once the game starts, nothing of the selection process still matters and you could just as easily select which regions are used and which aren't randomly, which in fact is how I prefer doing it.

In short: A player is in no way required to start or go anywhere near the region he or she selected to be part of the game board.
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Carl Johan Ragnarsson
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- I believe most players do not see the board selection as part of the game but rather selects a map = the same number of areas as the number of players, and then starts playing.

- Thus, all play is restricted to the selected regions, but no player is restricted to a single region, either to start or later.

- One is never stuck in a zone, not in phase 2 either. What changes in phase 2 is that 2 plants can be placed in each city, instead of only one.

- Yes, you can build as many cities and wherever you like during your first turn, restricted by the map. And all cities count toward network city, no matter where they are. But you may not use connections outside the selected map when calculating connection cost.
 
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Richard Weir
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The rules say for each player to choose a colored zone of the map. And that all zones chosen must be adjacent.

someone chooses first region a second person a region connected too the first the third person a region connected to both/either the forth connected to all/some/one of the previous selected regions etc...

you play on the same number of regions as there are players.

1. Does this then freeze the other colored sections of the map from being useable for the rest of the game?

yes. you cant build connections into or across these sections they do not exsist. i think it was designed like this so each game would present a variety of different setup options

2. Do we choose colored zones at beginning of the game--and then players must stick to their zone when building their first city during the first building round? Who chooses first if it is done at the game's beginning?

no. players may stick to the region they choose or play anywhere on the available map turn order is determined in the first round by random and then later on, after power station auction, by the person with the lowest value power stations. in subsequint turns turn order is the least connected cities then the lowest value power station if that is shared

3. Or, does the game merely progress to the first building round without zones having been pre-decided? The first builder (the worst player) may then play into any one zone. Then subsequent players must build into separate, but adjacent zones as players that went before?

no. your selection of power station first turn is best made if the map is known. if the map has a choke point where a single region connects to all regions it might be considered desirable to build first this is dertirmined by aquireing the worst power station and expanding without powering

4. One is not stuck in a zone until Phase 2 correct? Can one build in their starting zone, but on a subsequent turn build into a neighboring zone without having first filled up all seven cities in their own zone? (I'd say yes, from my reading of the rules.)

no. forget about zones they do not matter for scoring or otherwise after setup you may never build in the region you selected if you choose
but rather expand or start in a region with cheaper connections. you can build anywhere on the selected map however your line can not be broken so once you start you have to expand from there.

you will notice that each city has a pie shaped circle devided into three in phase 1 only one city/player can be in each city cost 10+connection cost if any. in phase two the city can be shared with one other player cost 15+ connection cost in phase 3 three players can share a city cost 20 +connection cost

5. And can someone build in two zones on their first building round, assuming they pay the appropriate connection costs?

remember the map is one zone so you can connect two cities anywhere as long as you pay the costs

each city has 3 zones they become available as mentioned one play can only place on connection in each city you can not have to same coloured powerplant things in the same city you can have as many connections as the map allows ie you could build a hub and expand you you can move in a line or whatever

6. I believe it is fine to jump or "leapfrog" cities if one gets blocked by just paying all connection cost(s) beyond the blocked city(ies)? If so such placed cities all still count toward the value of the size of network built, yes

yes they do to leapfrog cities you must pay connection costs to then connection cost from and cost of placement in connected city if you connect a leapfroged city you must pay the cheaper connection cost to reenter the city an the cost of establishing service ie 10 15 20
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Patrick Sullivan
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something interesting came up in a 4-player game last night. We had four adjacent sections of the map in play using the United States Map. The top three sections and Western U.S. were all picked randomly. The game went along normally and then something interesting came up:

During Step 3, all of the cities in the middle were full with 3 players each. The player that started in the Western U.S. was stuck there (obviously with the option to connect through the entire map to get to the other side). However, here's the rub:

It was cheaper for this person to use connections through the southern U.S. (red region that was not in play) then it was to go through the top of the map. Is this person allowed to pay the connection fees through the area that wasn't in play in order to connect a city IN PLAY on the other side of the map? I ruled that she could. I figure that you can't connect cities in areas that aren't in play but you can connect through them.

What do you guys think?
 
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Travis Hall
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quixotequest wrote:
The rules say for each player to choose a colored zone of the map.

Actually, they don't. "The players choose one area per player." Strictly, "one area per player" gives the number of areas to be chosen, but the rule says that it is "the players" choosing the areas, not each player choosing one area.

Each player choosing one area will certainly be a common method of determining what areas of the board will be played upon, but isn't mandated by the rules. The players can use any method they prefer. When I have played, we have usually choosen areas that look like they will give a relatively easy game (because I haven't been playing with very experienced players). The choosing has been done by discussion and consensus, not by each player choosing an area.

Also, in a six-player game, only five areas are used, which rather mucks up the whole "each player chooses an area" method.

Quote:
1. Does this then freeze the other colored sections of the map from being useable for the rest of the game?

That is the point, and the only effect, of this part of preparation. There are no "starting zones" at all, just areas which are used in the game, and areas which are not.

Quote:
6. I believe it is fine to jump or "leapfrog" cities if one gets blocked by just paying all connection cost(s) beyond the blocked city(ies)? If so such placed cities all still count toward the value of the size of network built, yes?

Yes. The only meaning of adjacency in Power Grid is the tendency for adjacent cities to be cheaper to connect.
 
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Bryan Jensen
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Black Barney wrote:
something interesting came up in a 4-player game last night. We had four adjacent sections of the map in play using the United States Map. The top three sections and Western U.S. were all picked randomly. The game went along normally and then something interesting came up:

During Step 3, all of the cities in the middle were full with 3 players each. The player that started in the Western U.S. was stuck there (obviously with the option to connect through the entire map to get to the other side). However, here's the rub:

It was cheaper for this person to use connections through the southern U.S. (red region that was not in play) then it was to go through the top of the map. Is this person allowed to pay the connection fees through the area that wasn't in play in order to connect a city IN PLAY on the other side of the map? I ruled that she could. I figure that you can't connect cities in areas that aren't in play but you can connect through them.

What do you guys think?


My understanding from reading the replies is that once useable areas of the map are selected at the beginning of the game, then all other parts of the map are unuseable, including building connections through unuseable cities/areas of the map, even if the final city built in is within your valid play area. So in your case, the player closed off needed to build via the more expensive lines because they were all contained within the play-able area of the map for your game.
 
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Philip Thomas
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So far I (as game owner) have been choosing the useable and unusable sections, and indeed which map. Which seems to work fine, especially as it means you're asking new players to make a decision before the game.
 
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Brad Keck
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Philip Thomas wrote:
So far I (as game owner) have been choosing the useable and unusable sections, and indeed which map. Which seems to work fine, especially as it means you're asking new players to make a decision before the game.

All the new players I've introduced to the game haven't had much trouble choosing random sections of a map.
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Kevin Brown
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quixotequest wrote:
My understanding from reading the replies is that once useable areas of the map are selected at the beginning of the game, then all other parts of the map are unuseable, including building connections through unuseable cities/areas of the map, even if the final city built in is within your valid play area. So in your case, the player closed off needed to build via the more expensive lines because they were all contained within the play-able area of the map for your game.


The rules are not explicit on this point. We've always disallowed connecting through the unplayable areas, but we have discussed the possibility of allowing it.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Yeah. The trick is making sure they believe you when you tell them it doesn't make any odds what they choose.
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Billy McBoatface
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pilight wrote:
The rules are not explicit on this point. We've always disallowed connecting through the unplayable areas, but we have discussed the possibility of allowing it.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that they are explicit on this point. I don't have them in front of me but I remember reading very clearly that you cannot build in cities outside the selected areas, and also you cannot use connections outside the selected areas.
 
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Brad Keck
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Philip Thomas wrote:
Yeah. The trick is making sure they believe you when you tell them it doesn't make any odds what they choose.

Good point.
 
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Brad Keck
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wmshub wrote:
pilight wrote:
The rules are not explicit on this point. We've always disallowed connecting through the unplayable areas, but we have discussed the possibility of allowing it.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that they are explicit on this point. I don't have them in front of me but I remember reading very clearly that you cannot build in cities outside the selected areas, and also you cannot use connections outside the selected areas.

I couldn't find anything explicit. It actually doesn't talk much about the unused areas at all (that I could find). Here's the closest information I could find:

"The players can use any connections between the cities, and can even use connections through cities that are momentarily not available or that they do not want to connect immediately."

It could probably be argued either way, but TO ME, this implies that you can only build through cities that are MOMENTARILY unavailable or that you do not WANT to connect to immediately. (As opposed to cities that will NEVER be available and you have no CHOICE to connect to them.)
 
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Brad Keck
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SouthernMan wrote:
TheKeck wrote:
wmshub wrote:
pilight wrote:
The rules are not explicit on this point. We've always disallowed connecting through the unplayable areas, but we have discussed the possibility of allowing it.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that they are explicit on this point. I don't have them in front of me but I remember reading very clearly that you cannot build in cities outside the selected areas, and also you cannot use connections outside the selected areas.

I couldn't find anything explicit. It actually doesn't talk much about the unused areas at all (that I could find). Here's the closest information I could find:

"The players can use any connections between the cities, and can even use connections through cities that are momentarily not available or that they do not want to connect immediately."

It could probably be argued either way, but TO ME, this implies that you can only build through cities that are MOMENTARILY unavailable or that you do not WANT to connect to immediately. (As opposed to cities that will NEVER be available and you have no CHOICE to connect to them.)


Plus the last line in the Preparation section on selecting the areas to be used in the game says "During the game, every player can play in all the selected areas." - I would say this implicitly says you can't play in the areas not selected, and building is playing.

Yep. I agree. I was just amazed that that was the ONLY sentence that even refers to this subject in any way.
 
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Bryan Jensen
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Thanks for all the help to those that replied. I'm probably stating something that's been said before: but it is totally flabbergasting that for how great this game is the rules are so unclear--and typeset/laid out so poorly.
 
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And I stand corrected. I checked my rules, it does not clearly state that you cannot connect through unused parts of the map. *sigh*.
 
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Patrick Sullivan
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yeah, i think you guys are wrong to assume that you can't connect through unused sections of the map. You simply can't connect cities in those sections but you can connect through these sections if you wish. I don't see anything in the rules that would indicate you can't do this.

It doesn't come up very often anyway. But it would be good to know what to do when it does.
 
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Brad Keck
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Black Barney wrote:
yeah, i think you guys are wrong to assume that you can't connect through unused sections of the map. You simply can't connect cities in those sections but you can connect through these sections if you wish. I don't see anything in the rules that would indicate you can't do this.

It doesn't come up very often anyway. But it would be good to know what to do when it does.

Well, I still think that the section of the rules I quoted at least IMPLIES that you can't connect through parts of the board that you are not playing on.
 
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SouthernMan wrote:
Black Barney wrote:
yeah, i think you guys are wrong to assume that you can't connect through unused sections of the map. You simply can't connect cities in those sections but you can connect through these sections if you wish. I don't see anything in the rules that would indicate you can't do this.

It doesn't come up very often anyway. But it would be good to know what to do when it does.

The whole point of this setup step is that parts of the board are NOT involved in the game .... without spelling it out I think it couldn't be any clearer

Seriously. Plus, if you use Barney's logic, you could argue that you are allowed to connect DIRECTLY to cities outside the playable region. After all... it never explicity disallows that either! surprise
 
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SouthernMan wrote:
PS I have been planning for a long time to create blank card cut-outs matching each region on the board (always something more important to do) to mark which ones are not being used for that game

That's actually a pretty great idea. I find it all too common that people try or plan to build somewhere only to realize later that it is in an unplayable area.
 
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Patrick Sullivan
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Someone on BGG made a good suggestion that I've been using. Use houses from a player that isn't playing and use them to build a wall around the playable area. That way, no one makes any mistakes. We've been doing that since the beginning and it makes things pretty clear.

But yeah, cut-outs would even cooler! You could make them the colour of the ocean and then say "this is what the States will look like if global warming keeps up"

 
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Laurence Parsons
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Quote:
PS I have been planning for a long time to create blank card cut-outs matching each region on the board (always something more important to do) to mark which ones are not being used for that game

Oh dear. I've done exactly that. How sad is that?
 
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Brad Keck
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SouthernMan wrote:
We use whatever is close by, comes to hand, can be seen in the distance .. and just fill up the unused regions so they are obviously not part of the game (this would also make the new variant difficult laugh ) - it's amazing what your brain does when you're looking for the killer move, planning moves through these areas when you damn well know they aren't in the game zombie

You know that makes me think, we often struggle for table real estate playing this game. Yet it never occurred to us to use the wasted board space! Two birds with one stone?
 
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quixotequest wrote:
Thanks for all the help to those that replied. I'm probably stating something that's been said before: but it is totally flabbergasting that for how great this game is the rules are so unclear--and typeset/laid out so poorly.


Yup. The rules are very mushy. When you select map sections, you block out the cities and connections of the omitted areas. The rules make it clear you can't build there, without ever explicitly saying you can't count connections through there. Just trust me: You can't.
 
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