Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
57 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Twilight Struggle» Forums » Rules

Subject: We Will Bury You - when do you score the 3VP? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Adam Deverell
Australia
Melbourne
Victoria
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I tried looking this up on CSW and couldn't find an answer - I don't have an account there, so couldn't post.

Situation: It is -18VP. I play "We Will Bury You" that gives me 3VP unless US played US Intervention as an event in his next turn.

He can't.

He does, however, have Duck & Cover that would give him 2VP.

When do I receive the 3VP for We Will Bury You?

Is it as soon as the US player says "I don't have UN Intervention" or does he get the VP for his event first? This would take it to 19VP (3VP for my event, 2VP for his).

Rule 10.3.1 states: The instant one player reaches a score of 20 VP, the game is over and that player is the winner. NOTE: All VP awards (for both players) that are scored during an event or scoring card must be applied prior to determining automatic victory.

So the question is: Does the 3VP award for We Will Bury You come into affect before the play of the US card, or is it simultaneous?

This could affect the outcome of our game!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Deverell
Australia
Melbourne
Victoria
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Further to this question: 10.2.3 If both players earn Victory Points from the same card or Event play, apply only the difference in Victory Points awarded.

Does playing another card instead of UN Intervention count as "same card or event play" as receiving the 3VP for We Will Bury You?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Weir
Australia
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmb
It is my opinion that you score the 3 vp the moment the US players fails to produce UN intervention however once a card is played the rules 10.2.3 and 10.3.1 would suggest that any score arrising form the event/card played have to be scored together after all it was failure to play the correct card not not having the card which is the issue.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Rubin
United States
Trenton
New Jersey
flag msg tools
badge
"It may be doubted whether so small a number of men ever employed so short a space of time with greater or more lasting effects upon the history of the world.” — Sir George Otto Trevelyan on the Battles of Trenton and Princeton
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The FAQ for "We Shall Bury You" includes: "The VP's are only earned after the US fails to play the UN INTERVENTION card." Since the US VP's are earned *as* the US player fails to play "UN Intervention", they socre first, IMO, and the game goes on.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Since you have to play a card in order to the We Will Bury You to decide whether you played a UN Intervention, it seems you would play Duck and Cover. Since Duck and Cover's effect of being played is to give you VPs, it seems that you would get those VPs when it is played (before the 3 VPs from We Will Bury You are awarded). At worst, the VP awards would be simultaneous, but even that seems unlikely: We Will Bury You's 3 VP award would almost certainly have to wait until after the US Player takes his or her action.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
red_gamster wrote:
I tried looking this up on CSW and couldn't find an answer - I don't have an account there, so couldn't post.

Situation: It is -18VP. I play "We Will Bury You" that gives me 3VP unless US played US Intervention as an event in his next turn.

He can't.

He does, however, have Duck & Cover that would give him 2VP.

When do I receive the 3VP for We Will Bury You?

Is it as soon as the US player says "I don't have UN Intervention" or does he get the VP for his event first? This would take it to 19VP (3VP for my event, 2VP for his).

Rule 10.3.1 states: The instant one player reaches a score of 20 VP, the game is over and that player is the winner. NOTE: All VP awards (for both players) that are scored during an event or scoring card must be applied prior to determining automatic victory.

So the question is: Does the 3VP award for We Will Bury You come into affect before the play of the US card, or is it simultaneous?

This could affect the outcome of our game!


Designer has ruled (on CSW, but will probably be here soon) that the VPs from We Will Bury You resolve first, which in this situation, would end the game.

Note the Duck and Cover is not the only card that scores points for the US that could be played. Any scoring card that netted the US points would work the same way in this situation. But We Will Bury You was played first.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Thomas
United Kingdom
London
London
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Of course, this also applies where the Score is hovering near +20 and the game may end if the US scores first. I've never seen that situation though.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jason's actual "ruling", given on CSW, is more of a first impression statement of opinion. Hopefully it is indicative of the possibility of a future ruling (either confirming the off-the-cuff statement or reversing it) after more thorough examination.

Jason on CSW wrote:
I responded (on BGG) with: Hey Adam, this one is a case of first impression. My vote is that you get your 3 points the second he does not play UN Intervention. Since the text of We Will Bury You was played earlier than Duck and Cover, you should finnish its resolution first. I'll post this over to Consimworld as well where we maintain a FAQ.


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chester
United States
Temple
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hmmm...

I'd prefer if the US player's card resolved first, since its the playing of the card that allows We Will Bury You to take effect. What if its a Scoring Card?

In the example given, I'd have played that the VPs go town to -16 and then back to -19 and the game continues. Its not like the USSR isn't sitting pretty anyway. :)

An "official" ruling would be nice.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Here's a bit of a paradox that arises if We Will Bury You triggers immediately upon the play of a card other than UN Intervention, rather than waiting for the resolution of the card played:

US player plays Grain Sales to the Soviets as an event.
We Will Bury You triggers, giving USSR player 3VP.
Grain Sales is resolved, with the US player pulling UN Intervention from the USSR hand and playing it as an event (simultaneously with a USSR card from the US hand, of course).


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Deverell
Australia
Melbourne
Victoria
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Obviously a situation that we haven't seen before. Here's the initial response from the designer, Jason Matthews, who responded VERY quickly to my question:

Quote:
this one is a case of first impression. My vote is that you get your 3 points the second he does not play UN Intervention. Since the text of We Will Bury You was played earlier than Duck and Cover, you should finnish its resolution first. I'll post this over to Consimworld as well where we maintain a FAQ.


There were a number of arguments back and forth on CSW which you can follow using this link: http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?50@600.Hyg3cqR2x7j.2@.1dcfd...

Quote:
In the example given, I'd have played that the VPs go town to -16 and then back to -19 and the game continues. Its not like the USSR isn't sitting pretty anyway.


Which is what we did. However the USSR was NOT sitting pretty. I had the hand of death, and quickly fell down to -11 VP. If this was a tournament game I'd be bringing it to the Supreme Court.

Still waiting for absolute confirmation here - I think the designer is going to put it in the official FAQ on CSW. We've continued with the game, which I'm sure you'll all be relieved to see I've recovered well after a terrible US hand in turn 7.

I'll post it as a session report with a feature on the WWBY event card.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Rulemonger wrote:
Here's a bit of a paradox that arises if We Will Bury You triggers immediately upon the play of a card other than UN Intervention, rather than waiting for the resolution of the card played:

US player plays Grain Sales to the Soviets as an event.
We Will Bury You triggers, giving USSR player 3VP.
Grain Sales is resolved, with the US player pulling UN Intervention from the USSR hand and playing it as an event (simultaneously with a USSR card from the US hand, of course).



No, because the US is clearly playing UN intervention during his action phase, thus cancelling the 3 VPs.

What is being said, is that if UN Intervention is not played, then the VPs from We Will Bury You will trigger before any VP effect of what the US does. But if the US can play UN Intervention during that action phase, regardless of how he got it, then the VPs from WWBY are not triggered.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Deverell
Australia
Melbourne
Victoria
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
What is being said, is that if UN Intervention is not played, then the VPs from We Will Bury You will trigger before any VP effect of what the US does. But if the US can play UN Intervention during that action phase, regardless of how he got it, then the VPs from WWBY are not triggered


Exactly. That's what I *think* the official ruling is, but we'll have to wait and see what the final FAQ says on the matter.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Weir
Australia
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmb
This discusion is interesting but as the competent gamer on the sharp end of this whole discusion I would like to remind you all that rule 10.3.1 states that all points arrising from a card play are awarded before an automatic victory is determnied so my card play blunted his quest for victory. Regardless, the rules as they are writen have been followed. WWBY relies on a card to come into play/effect and in the situation the conditions were not met however 10.2.3 and 10.3.1 both state that all vps arrising from a card play are calculated before adjusting the score.

At the best the soviet player scored 1 vp in this exchange as two vps from my card were and have to be taken into account. If a correction is made and WWBY becomes a "boggie" card the effects of which happen in the mists of mid turn madness then the wording will have to be changed.

He does not score until another card is played and once a card is played the effects of it have to be applied.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AllenDoum wrote:
Rulemonger wrote:
Here's a bit of a paradox that arises if We Will Bury You triggers immediately upon the play of a card other than UN Intervention, rather than waiting for the resolution of the card played:

US player plays Grain Sales to the Soviets as an event.
We Will Bury You triggers, giving USSR player 3VP.
Grain Sales is resolved, with the US player pulling UN Intervention from the USSR hand and playing it as an event (simultaneously with a USSR card from the US hand, of course).



No, because the US is clearly playing UN intervention during his action phase, thus cancelling the 3 VPs.

What is being said, is that if UN Intervention is not played, then the VPs from We Will Bury You will trigger before any VP effect of what the US does. But if the US can play UN Intervention during that action phase, regardless of how he got it, then the VPs from WWBY are not triggered.


Yes, that's the point.

When are the 3 VPs awarded?

1. As soon as the US player announces that his or her action is something other than "UN Intervention as an event"?

2. After the US player's action, if the condition ("UN as event") was not met?

3. At the end of the US player's turn, if the condition was not met (which is effectively the same as 2, given the current card set, but might be needed if there is an expansion and the expansion has any effects which would allow multiple actions in a single action round)?

In the case of Grain Sales, you seem to imply that the VPs are not awarded until after the Grain Sales event is resolved. That is contrary to Jason's quick answer in which the VPs are awarded before the event is resolved.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Tagge
China
Guangzhou
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Card Text wrote:
Unless #32 UN Intervention is played as an Event on
the US player's next round, USSR gains 3 VP.
Degrade DEFCON status one level.


Poppycock! It is quite clear as a native English speaker that the USSR does not get the three VPs until the end of the US player's turn. I hate rulings that ignore semantics to go with the decider's feelings instead. This just serves to splinter players between those who constantly keep up with the FAQ vs those who can read English properly. Eratta is a different matter, but this is clearly not eratta, just an arbitrary ruling.


While we are dealing in possibles, try the following situation: the US player plays Star Wars to draw and play Grain Sales and draws Missile Envy which in turn draws UN Intervention (since it is the last card in the USSR player's hand) which he then plays with a USSR card to cancel the event. Bah. We have a language for a reason.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
First, this is an issue only if the USSR has 17 or more VPs. If he doesn't, then the timing of the US VPs is irrelevant.

WWBY was played first. It is on the table with the result pending. The VPs are due to that event.

Any US VPs that are the result of an event played in the US action phase occur later. These are not victory point awarded because of the "same action", but are the result of the later action.

I realize that this is an ambiguous situation. The designer was asked for a ruling, and he gave one.

You are free to play the game anyway you choose, of course, but an official ruling has been given and is being added to the FAQ.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There's still the paradox: if the VPs are awarded by the "ruling" (contrary to card text, whose ambiguity, if any, doesn't afford such an interpretation) at the moment the US player announces an action other than "Un Intervention as an event", then you could end up with a case where the VPs are awarded (because the non-"UN As Event" action was "Grain Sales" or somesuch) and the condition later proves not to be met.

For those who don't see the paradox, perhaps it is because of a difference of opinion as to when the VPs are awarded. If so, here's a question that needs a official ruling:

Q: When, exactly, are the VPs from "We Will Bury You" awarded? Before resolving the non-"UN as event" action or after (or simultaneously)?

(which only matters when the timing matters, obviously.)

Card text would indicate "after", as in "at the end of the US player's turn", but the "ruling" indicates "before".

Or, perhaps the paradox is not seen because of a difference of opinion as to when the effect of an event are applied, such as VPs from an event like Duck and Cover or the card draw from Grain Sales:

Q: When are the effects of an event like Duck and Cover or Grain Sales applied? When the event resolves or later?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There is no paradox here. Both the cards and the rules are clear enough to support the ruling.

10.3.1 (1st bullet) has all of the rules that apply:

"The instant one player reach a score of 20 VP, the game is over and that player is the winner." so when the USSR plays We Will Bury You and has 17 points, he has won the game unless the US can play UN Intervention, by whatever means. That is the only reason that the 3 VPs would not be scored. If the US player cannot find a way to play the UN, then the game is over.

The Note in that bullet point does not apply here. No other VPs are scored by WWBY. Any VPs on some other event that the US could play are not applied because they are not on the same event.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
richardweir wrote:
This discusion is interesting but as the competent gamer on the sharp end of this whole discusion I would like to remind you all that rule 10.3.1 states that all points arrising from a card play are awarded before an automatic victory is determnied so my card play blunted his quest for victory. Regardless, the rules as they are writen have been followed. WWBY relies on a card to come into play/effect and in the situation the conditions were not met however 10.2.3 and 10.3.1 both state that all vps arrising from a card play are calculated before adjusting the score.

Sorry you lost, but the card you play is not the same card as WWBY. You played Duck and Cover afterwards. All of the points from WWBY are applied, and the game is over immeditately. If you cannot play UN Intervention, then you cannot continue.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Thomas
United Kingdom
London
London
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So, Allen, what happens when, after We Will Bury You the next US event triggers a US play of UN Intervention (via Grain Sales or Missile Envy)?

I'm guessing We Will Bury you doesn't score. Which is fine.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AllenDoum wrote:
There is no paradox here. Both the cards and the rules are clear enough to support the ruling.

10.3.1 (1st bullet) has all of the rules that apply:

"The instant one player reach a score of 20 VP, the game is over and that player is the winner." so when the USSR plays We Will Bury You and has 17 points, he has won the game unless the US can play UN Intervention, by whatever means. That is the only reason that the 3 VPs would not be scored. If the US player cannot find a way to play the UN, then the game is over.


So the answer to the question "When are the VPs from WWBY awarded?" is "immediately upon the play of WWBY, subject to future fulfillment of the condition"?

So at the moment he plays WWBY, the game essentially proceeds along two competing timelines. In one, WWBY grants the player 3 VPs immediately because the future condition is (will be) met; while in the other, WWBY does not grant any VPs, because the future condition is not (will not be) met. Then you just proceed along both of those timelines until the future condition check becomes the present.

That's a mechanic I've never seen before. Thanks for illuminating it.

Seems like a poor mechanic to use, to me, however. YMMV.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Philip Thomas wrote:
So, Allen, what happens when, after We Will Bury You the next US event triggers a US play of UN Intervention (via Grain Sales or Missile Envy)?

I'm guessing We Will Bury you doesn't score. Which is fine.

Correct. As long as the US gets it played, it doesn't matter how he got it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Matthews
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AllenDoum wrote:
There is no paradox here. Both the cards and the rules are clear enough to support the ruling.

10.3.1 (1st bullet) has all of the rules that apply:

"The instant one player reach a score of 20 VP, the game is over and that player is the winner." so when the USSR plays We Will Bury You and has 17 points, he has won the game unless the US can play UN Intervention, by whatever means. That is the only reason that the 3 VPs would not be scored. If the US player cannot find a way to play the UN, then the game is over.

The Note in that bullet point does not apply here. No other VPs are scored by WWBY. Any VPs on some other event that the US could play are not applied because they are not on the same event.


Allen's post reflects my reading of the rules and cards. WE WILL BURY YOU is a previously played card that is awaiting resolution. Nothing in 10.3.1 or UN INTERVENTION or WE WILL BURY YOU establishes that you must resolve US card play before the WE WILL BURY YOU is finally resolved. In that sense, its more like BLOCKADE. If the US does not immediately discard a 3 Ops card, its over -- the points are gone. The resolution of that card preceeds anything else the US player does. It is a pre-existing requirement to US play.

In this case, once it is clear that the US player will not play UN as an event the scoring takes place.

The note at the conclusion of 10.3.1 is of course, referring to Scoring Cards (cards which simultaneously award points to both players). The note specifically refers to "AN event - singular - or Scoring Card." In this case, we are talking about the resolution of a sequence of cards (not "AN" event). In my worldview it makes most sense to resolve a cards in a "first laid, first resolved" order.

Jason
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Rulemonger wrote:
So at the moment he plays WWBY, the game essentially proceeds along two competing timelines. In one, WWBY grants the player 3 VPs immediately because the future condition is (will be) met; while in the other, WWBY does not grant any VPs, because the future condition is not (will not be) met. Then you just proceed along both of those timelines until the future condition check becomes the present.

That's a mechanic I've never seen before. Thanks for illuminating it.

Seems like a poor mechanic to use, to me, however. YMMV.

Keeping in mind that there are no "interrupt" cards in TS, which would cause even bigger rules problems, I don't see another way of handling it. If you allow the US to have full effect of some other card, then WWBY would not end the game. This is the only situation in which a potential game winning effect can be canceled. The others all take place immediately. Since the card also has a potential game losing effect that takes place when it is played, it is consistent with the other cards, IMO.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.