Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
24 Posts

Marvel Heroes» Forums » Rules

Subject: "Discard this card to get the initiative" ? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Sascha Hoppe
Germany
Braunschweig / City of Lions
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
Hello,

some of the villains special-effects say : "Discard this card to get the initiative" (translated from German)

Does that mean "before and instead of rolling the outwit-roll", or is the outwit-roll done nevertheless?

Example: HP throws 4 dice outwit and has 3 hits, VP throws 5 dice and get 2 hits. VP gets one KO, and HP keeps initiative. VP discards card and gets initiative instead.

or HP and VP both roll attack and defense and than before the outwit roll, VP discards card and gets initiative without rolling outwit.


Thanks
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Phil Thompson
United Kingdom
Unspecified
flag msg tools
My interpretation is that this ability is used at the start of a round of combat, either to change the default initiative or to change the initiative outcome of the previous outwit roll (but not the KO). I don't think it can be used to avoid an outwit contest and the resultant KO.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Becerra Aller
Spain
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I would say the first option: you roll Outwit as usual, and at the beginning of hte next round, before any character had chosen power, use the "get the initiative" ability/backup card.

Compare, for example, to Magneto's special Combat Ability: in there, it is clearly stated that there's no Outwit roll at all.

Hope that helps.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yiorgos Golfinopoulos
Greece
Patras
GREECE
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In my opinion you can discard the card to get the initiative AFTER powers are revealed.At least that's what I unterstand by reading the rules.
Initiative comes to decide who will be the first to attack and has nothing to do with choosing a power so if you want to get the initiative you do it right after powers are revealed.
Of course that gives the villain an advantage but I can't see any reason not to.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Denman
United States
Katy
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm inclined to agree with Caedes. If you read the timing rules, having to grab the initiative at the beginning of the combat sequence before powers are revealed is more consistent. Switching the initiative AFTER powers are revealed strikes me as a little too powerful.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew M
United States
New Haven
Connecticut
flag msg tools
admin
8/8 FREE, PROTECTED
badge
513ers Assemble!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Why wait until the Outwit roll? Am I wrong in thinking that you could discard the card immediately to gain initiative in the very first round of combat? That would seem to be the best use for the card, afterall, and also seems more thematically appropriate for a card titled "ambush".

-MMM
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alexander B.
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmb
Octavian wrote:
Why wait until the Outwit roll? Am I wrong in thinking that you could discard the card immediately to gain initiative in the very first round of combat? That would seem to be the best use for the card, afterall, and also seems more thematically appropriate for a card titled "ambush".

-MMM


I agree. But the problem is, what if I want to discard another card to get initiative again in the next round? I'd say that I would wait until I lost an outwit roll, then discard another card to get the initiative again? Right?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Denman
United States
Katy
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I can see where my previous message would be misleading. I think you CAN use it on the first round. To me, the argument is only whether or not you have to use it before powers are chosen. I'm currently playing that you can use it whenever you want to in the sequence.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alexander B.
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmb
Trump wrote:
I can see where my previous message would be misleading. I think you CAN use it on the first round. To me, the argument is only whether or not you have to use it before powers are chosen. I'm currently playing that you can use it whenever you want to in the sequence.


Good question. By my reading of the rules, it would be allowed to use the effect after chosing powers, but perhaps there should be an official ruling?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Scatliff
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
It's about time, too.
badge
I hate overtext but love irony.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't know why anybody would think it cancelled the outwit roll. It certainly doesn't say anything about cancelling the outwit roll.

As for the timing, I agree the rules aren't specific, but I quote these lines from p.14:
1. "In the first combat sequence, the Super Hero has Initiative."
2. "In addition, the player who wins the outwit contest gains Initiative for the next combat sequence (if the opponent has not been defeated already)."
3. "In case of a tie, no KOs are inflicted; the player who currently has Initiative keeps it, and another combat sequence is fought."

Those are the only three references to Initiative being assigned, so it would seem to me that those are the only times that the effect could be played. In other words, it's good at the beginning of combat, or after the outwit contest of a completed combat sequence. Unless I hear otherwise from a designer I see absolutely no reason to believe it can be played at any other time and I think it's a reach to interpret more than that into the card.

EDIT to clarify:
In all three of the above quotes, Initiative is said to be assigned for an entire combat sequence. That, to me, says that once the combat sequence has begun, Initiative cannot be changed. And once powers are chosen, the combat sequence has begun. I don't know, it seems clear to me, but I'm just some guy with a rulebook and an attitude.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alexander B.
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmb
Smoo wrote:
... Unless I hear otherwise from a designer I see absolutely no reason to believe it can be played at any other time and I think it's a reach to interpret more than that into the card.


On the contrary, the fact that it does not say WHEN you can play the card, means that YOU are putting more into the card by limiting when it can be played.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Scatliff
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
It's about time, too.
badge
I hate overtext but love irony.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
diamondspider wrote:
Smoo wrote:
... Unless I hear otherwise from a designer I see absolutely no reason to believe it can be played at any other time and I think it's a reach to interpret more than that into the card.


On the contrary, the fact that it does not say WHEN you can play the card, means that YOU are putting more into the card by limiting when it can be played.


That's backwards thinking. In no game should the default position be "I can play this card whenever I want unless it specifically prohibits me". That's a recipe for chaos.

EDIT: Okay, that's not entirely true. But I still think I'm right. Playing it after combat powers are chosen seems to counter specific other things in the rules. Not in a direct manner, granted, but indirectly.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alexander B.
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmb
Smoo wrote:
diamondspider wrote:
Smoo wrote:
... Unless I hear otherwise from a designer I see absolutely no reason to believe it can be played at any other time and I think it's a reach to interpret more than that into the card.


On the contrary, the fact that it does not say WHEN you can play the card, means that YOU are putting more into the card by limiting when it can be played.


That's backwards thinking. In no game should the default position be "I can play this card whenever I want unless it specifically prohibits me". That's a recipe for chaos.


Huh? In most games, they specify when you can play the card if it is limited. Many cards in the game are limited to various times, so that fact that this one isn't does indeed default to "when it best suits your strategy".

You are including more rules than there actually are, and THAT is a recipe for chaos!

I feel this needs a ruling from the designer: that is the bottom line.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Scatliff
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
It's about time, too.
badge
I hate overtext but love irony.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
diamondspider wrote:
You are including more rules than there actually are


I don't think I am. How do you feel about my comment about the use of the phrase "combat sequence" in the quotes? You may have to go back and read my edits, I had some afterthoughts on both my last posts. The way those three lines are worded seems pretty specific to me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alexander B.
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmb
Smoo wrote:
diamondspider wrote:
You are including more rules than there actually are


I don't think I am. How do you feel about my comment about the use of the phrase "combat sequence" in the quotes? You may have to go back and read my edits, I had some afterthoughts on both my last posts. The way those three lines are worded seems pretty specific to me.


Actually, I did find a rule that might impact this:

p. 15: "An ability may never be used retroactively, unless it specifically states otherwise. For example, you cannot decide to use an ability that changes the number of dice you roll after you've rolled the dice!"

So, indeed, it would be only RIGHT BEFORE initiative was determined that you would be able to grab it. This means that you could not do it after the Outwit test determined initiative.

The problem is, there is still a problem: since the hero gets initiative at the start of combat (before anything else has happened and nothing happens before it) could it still be legal to use this power and grab the initiative on the first move? I'd say probably, but it is still odd.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Scatliff
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
It's about time, too.
badge
I hate overtext but love irony.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, we seem to have stalemated then. I can now see what you're getting at. I still disagree, but there's certainly nothing definitive on the subject. I look forward to an official ruling.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Scatliff
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
It's about time, too.
badge
I hate overtext but love irony.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Erp, well, one last post since you got me looking at the timing rules...

"Some abilities state in their text that their effect lasts for one combat sequence: ... (etc etc)"

Granted, the Initiative card doesn't say anything about combat sequence in their text, but all references to Initiative in the rules imply that Initiative is something that lasts for an entire combat sequence.

Then again, your point seems to be that the fact that they do NOT mention combat sequence in the card text may be equally specific. And it's a valid point. Now my head hurts.

Shrug.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. B. M.
United States
Fairborn
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
This question has come up in my group as well.

I'm on the fence about when it can be played.

Since it doesn't specify when it can be played or what the effect is (other than "take the initiative"); it's difficult to determine the intent.

I would disgree that it can only be played when Initiative is being assigned; because it doesn't state that it it affects the outcome of an Outwit roll (such as "Discard this card following an Outwit roll to take the initiative even if you lost the Outwit roll").

It also doesn't specify that it must be played at the beginning or ending of a combat sequence or before combat powers are chosen or revealed.

My read of the card is that it can be discarded at any time to gain the initiative.

I don't have the cards with me to check. If it is a 1 point card, it may need some restriction regarding the combat powers; however, if it is a 2 point card, I would say that it is powerful enough to take initiative after combat powers are revealed (but before the first combat roll).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alexander B.
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmb
deltabob wrote:
This question has come up in my group as well.

I'm on the fence about when it can be played.

Since it doesn't specify when it can be played or what the effect is (other than "take the initiative"); it's difficult to determine the intent.

I would disgree that it can only be played when Initiative is being assigned; because it doesn't state that it it affects the outcome of an Outwit roll (such as "Discard this card following an Outwit roll to take the initiative even if you lost the Outwit roll").

..).


Yes, I also don't think it has anything to do with the outwit roll, however, since it clearly states that something cannot be changed retroactively, that would mean that once the initiative is established, it cannot be changed.

The question then becomes exactly whe the initiative is established:

1) for the first round, it is unclear, since the hero starts with it by "default", strictly speaking, because the rules set this initiative prior to the entire game beginning, it can never be retroactively changed, but this is odd at best,

2) for the other rounds after the first, it is clear that initiative is established right after the outwit roll, therefore, the power must be used prior to the outwit roll in order to change the initiative for that round (if this rule is consistent, which I'm assuming it is).

In sum, we still need official rulings
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J
Canada
AB
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Playing a card according to it's stated text is not "using it retroactively." Retroactive is when you do a little bit of time travel: "Oh, by the way, I meant to play this card before the dice were rolled." For example, after seeing the superhero's first attack, the villain player may not say, "I'm playing this card to take the initiative, that attack doesn't count."

All this card does is changes who has the initiative. It doesn't change any other part of the process. This card can be played at any time -- it's just that at some times it will be useless to play it.

Here's the sequence:

- Superhero starts with initiative

- This card may be played to give the villain the initiative

- Attack 1

- The card may be played here...

- Attack 2

- ...or here, but it would be useless, since the next step is:

- Outwit (initiative is decided)

- This card may be played to give the villain the initiative if the superhero had won the Outwit roll.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Blake Thurston
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
diamondspider wrote:

Yes, I also don't think it has anything to do with the outwit roll, however, since it clearly states that something cannot be changed retroactively, that would mean that once the initiative is established, it cannot be changed.


Actually, I believe you've got cause and effect confused. When the rulebook refers to not being able to retroactively change the number of dice, it's referring to not being able to change after the effect of the chosen number of dice (actually rolling said dice), not the cause of the chosen number of dice (determining the number of dice from the powers attack/defense/wit value). You ARE able to change the number of dice with ally/hero/villan abilities or backup effects between the cause and the effect, but not after the effect.

When speaking of initiative here are the possible causes:
1> Hero starts with initiative
2> Hero/Villain wins the wits roll

The effect of initiative is:
The hero/villain with the initiative rolls for attack first.

So... I would argue this means that the change of initiative will not be retroactive until after the attack roll has STARTED. So that would mean to me that you can change the initiative after the powers have been selected.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alexander B.
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmb
Riptorch wrote:
diamondspider wrote:

Yes, I also don't think it has anything to do with the outwit roll, however, since it clearly states that something cannot be changed retroactively, that would mean that once the initiative is established, it cannot be changed.


Actually, I believe you've got cause and effect confused. When the rulebook refers to not being able to retroactively change the number of dice, it's referring to not being able to change after the effect of the chosen number of dice (actually rolling said dice), not the cause of the chosen number of dice (determining the number of dice from the powers attack/defense/wit value). You ARE able to change the number of dice with ally/hero/villan abilities or backup effects between the cause and the effect, but not after the effect.

When speaking of initiative here are the possible causes:
1> Hero starts with initiative
2> Hero/Villain wins the wits roll

The effect of initiative is:
The hero/villain with the initiative rolls for attack first.

So... I would argue this means that the change of initiative will not be retroactive until after the attack roll has STARTED. So that would mean to me that you can change the initiative after the powers have been selected.


The rules don't say that it is dice that cannot be retroactively determined but, apparently, that nothing can be retroactively determined, including who gets initiative for a round. The point, I believe, is to stop people from waiting for something to first happen before changing it unless it explicitly states you may do so (many games have this).

The rules then also say that initiative is determined by the outcome of the outwit roll. So, since one cannot change something once it has been determined, I'm not sure why you would be able to change the outcome, not of the outwit roll, but of the result of that roll which then SETS the initiative, only after you have knowledge that that is what it was determined to be.

In sum, we still need an official ruling IMO I honestly don't know what the intent was here, but I see no argument that it is clear that... is clear...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Scatliff
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
It's about time, too.
badge
I hate overtext but love irony.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
diamondspider wrote:
So, since one cannot change something once it has been determined


This is simply not true. Things like this happen in the game all the time. Cards can be played to increase your attack rating, even though your hero card clearly has already "determined" what you combat strength is. Cards can be played to add hits to your attack result, even though the die roll has clearly determined the number of results you get. Just look at the Innocent Bystanders card - how do you expect to ever be able to play that card under your interpretation? Or any card that refers to dice "just rolled"?

Your interpretation of "retroactively" is incorrect. The example they give is that you can not decide to add a die to your combat roll if you've already rolled the die. I would also submit that another example would be thet you cannot claim the initiative if you've already seen what combat power your opponent has chosen. I would interpret that as a retroactive reaction as well. But I can understand those who would disagree.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Bryant
United States
Jamaica Plain
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You use the power after the outwit contest. So you can loose the outwit take your KO but still go first. That is how it works. If it was intended to skip the outwit it would read like Magnetos power but also state that you gain the init.

Take initiative is a very strong boost for villians as it gives them the chance to go first. It is less usefull for heroes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.