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Subject: Why does WK keep trying to push that standard Photon Torpedo at us? rss

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David Griffin
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I'm trying to remember the last time I actually saw someone use a standard 5 point photon with it's manditory TL (a pain against cloaks), it's horrible action efficiency, it's disabling, and all for a glorious 5 points of damage (maybe even with 1 BS conversion if you're lucky).

Some of the more recent weapons have been better. Why not admit that the "standard" torpedo is a dog and give us a "better" standard torpedo? Or why not allow a torpedo spending a TL to use the TL to reroll? If they did, do you think it would see use? Still a pain in the action efficiency but some ships might like it (Yeager).
 
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Will Holsclaw
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For a while, I was playing with a couple of Fed builds that used the High Yield Photons. Now that Type 8 Phasers have landed, though, it's become harder to justify them even in a Fed build.
 
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Just like a how hammer can technically nail a screw into a piece of wood a person might decide to fire a Photon Torpedo instead of bolstering the primary weapon of their ship or using something more efficient.


Personally I would absolutely have loved it if Torpedo's had a small area of effect where the primary target takes full damage and ships within range band 1 of it take a bit less damage -- friendly or not.
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Dave C
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The cynical answer to your question is that it's an easy card for them to make and pad a pack with: copy the text, change the picture, and off to the printers.

I think in some degree they've realized that the standard torpedo's not very good, which it why we're seeing secondary weapons that don't require a TL, or that do but don't provide a BS convert and are cheaper (so it's theoretically a nice/cheap boost for ships with low PAV's). That being said, I feel like there's some reluctance to admit that they were wrong on torpedoes.

I know for myself that it's been a LONG time since I've used them. As a (mostly) Fed player, I initially used them occasionally for rear arc coverage, but now there are so many cheap options for that it's just not worth it. And even if I was using them, I'd usually want to at least have a BS token beside my ship for quality, which meant upgrading to Quantums anyway (since the BS convert wasn't useful).

I did at one point have an Excelsior build I was considering that used crew Spock, Lojur, Tuvok, and Riker+Doctor to fire 6-die Quantums every turn with Scan=BS for quality, but I never used it because it would have been too easy to disrupt. It also came in at over 50pts, so it's now also not playable anyway.

As has been pointed out, with Type 8 Phasers now available to boost low PAV's, standard photons are going to be an even harder to justify.
 
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Will Holsclaw
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If all Primary Weapons were limited to Range 1-2 from the get-go and Torpedoes were the only way to extend that, they'd probably see a lot more use.

I reckon that if Andrew Parks were re-designing the game from the ground up today, he'd probably do something like that. Certainly the range mechanics in D&D Attack Wing reflect a much greater variety in that regard.
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Waspinator
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Cards like Disrupter Beams are so much better it isn't even funny.
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Torpedoes were poorly thought out, plain and simple.

They are sometimes good to shoot backwards, but feds, mirrors, etc have better. QT's were effective at one point, but not as much any more.

Torpedoes in general should have some baked in effect faq'd in. AoE attack, dealing hits to multiple fighter token, anything to make them in some way justifiable to use.
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Trueflight Silverwing
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I think a simple errata to allow torpedoes to have a free re-roll in addition to the effects listed on the card would go a long way to making them more useful. At least it might get them to be played here or there.

Maybe making them do full damage to Fighter Squadrons instead of being limited to a single token would make them much more appealing.
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Evan
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Well, let's look at their options:

1) They can never print another torpedo again.
2) They can make strictly better versions of existing torpedoes, thereby making at least thirty cards obsolete.
3) They can errata those thirty cards.

We'll call those "the bad options." 1 and 2 aren't terrible, since those cards aren't being used either way, but we can do better. 3 is just ridiculous. Or:

4) They can issue cards that will make the existing torpedoes better.

Let's call that the "how every other game in the universe handles balance" option, and I think that's their plan, for two reasons. First: all those powerful new secondaries are pretty conspicuously not torpedoes. And second: they're already doing it. High-Yield Photons, Enterprise-E, Malcolm Reed, Volley of Torpedoes, etc. Now, none of these has provided enough of a boost to make a difference, but if they threw a reload upgrade in the Thunderchild, torpedoes could become competitive overnight.*

It's such a tidy and obvious solution, and yet people still insist on crying "ERRATA!" whenever the game isn't exactly where they want it to be. MaximumDT's hammer/screw picture is appropriate in more ways than one.


*edit: I actually prefer the too-slow incremental approach myself, because it's less likely to wreck balance and also because if too much of the change is built into a single upgrade, you just know that next year we'll be hearing "Torpedo Reloads were in 5 of the top 8 at Worlds and are therefore clearly broken"
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Dale McKee
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Simplest fix would be to require a Target Lock to launch a torpedo, but not require SPENDING your Target Lock to do so. This would let you spend the lock to re-roll if you wanted.
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Larry DeStefano
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Been working the problem from the other end. Right now TL/BS combo gets you almost a 100% hit rate with your PAV. So go for high PAV get that combo and problem solved. Early on Torps had some use for covering blind spots, but with the new 360 degree secondary weapons they lost that slight use as well. In causal games I've been limited TL and BS are allowed to effect 2 dice seems to be working. Cuts on the High PAV auto hits and makes Torps look better. Have not coupled it with Carbon Dragon reload variant yet, but I think it would make Torps look even better.

BTW as of right now basically all torps and many other cards are worthless right now, so I'm game for anything that would change that. New cards. Errata for individual cards (in this day of easy access to printers I dont have a problem even printing my own, or WZ selling "corrected" cards. I would willing do a mail in bad card get the "corrected" card mailed to us.
 
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Sodoff Baldrick
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Honestly I don't see that torpedoes need all that much. The faction that relies on the the most would be feds and they have plenty of solutions to make torpedoes viable.
1) Picard 9
2) Spock
3) Lojur
4) USS Yeager
5) Fed Fleet Captain
6) Flagship (for home games or venues that are not retiring)
7) USS Enterprise E
8) Picard 8

These make Torpedoes fairly reliable for feds.

Klingons really only use torpedoes for shooting backwards so the standard 4 dice torpedoes work fine. High yields, Martok, Kargan and Klingon fleet captain make them even better.

Romuland, Dominion, and Borg don't really care because on average their primaries are better. Now 5 die torpedoes on a Jem'Hadar attack ship is nice, but for a point less and still in faction you would take a Keldon anyway.

Independents have Karr, Gorn Commander, and Sessalak to get more mileage out of theirs.

So torpedoes just are not an issue anymore. The two factions that would use them the most have have several options. Plus everyone can use Mater Strategist or High Yields to get more efficacy.

The OPs also make torpedoes out to be worse then they really are. In an OP people are putting everything they have into 2 maybe 3 tough ships, so yeah a 5 attack torpedo doesn't seem like all that. But in bigger games of 300+ points people are not putting Paris, Sulu, and Riker all on one ship with Multi Adaptive Shields. In bigger games the buffs get spread out over the fleet, so suddenly 4 Mirandas with torpedoes is much more of an imposing thing. Not every card that is fun for casual play will work for OPs.
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H. Tucker Cobey
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Or--and I'm just spitballing here--I could run a ship that has five attack dice to begin with.

Part of the point is that even five or six die torpedoes don't match up to just shooting with a TL on your primary. In Fed, even most of the three-die ships are just better off taking Type 8s. But when you start getting to the Prometheus or the Sovereign classes? Sure, Ent-E can shoot torpedoes without a disable, but why would it ever want to? It's already rolling five dice, and for the price of the level of torpedo it would take to increase that it could take Dorsal Phaser Array instead--which is just a million times better anyway.
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Sodoff Baldrick
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Yes when you have a 5 attack ship using the primary is way better than torpedoes. However when you play bigger games with 15-20 ships your not likely to have enough type 8 phasers to go around. Torpedoes give those tiny ships a boost in big games. I have 7 Excelsior class ships, when I use them all I would much rather use the torpedoes that they come with than buy multiple hoods on ebay for 2 upgrades.
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Larry DeStefano
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Mr S Baldrick wrote:
Honestly I don't see that torpedoes need all that much. The faction that relies on the the most would be feds and they have plenty of solutions to make torpedoes viable.
1) Picard 9
2) Spock
3) Lojur
4) USS Yeager
5) Fed Fleet Captain
6) Flagship (for home games or venues that are not retiring)
7) USS Enterprise E
8) Picard 8

These make Torpedoes fairly reliable for feds.

Klingons really only use torpedoes for shooting backwards so the standard 4 dice torpedoes work fine. High yields, Martok, Kargan and Klingon fleet captain make them even better.

Romuland, Dominion, and Borg don't really care because on average their primaries are better. Now 5 die torpedoes on a Jem'Hadar attack ship is nice, but for a point less and still in faction you would take a Keldon anyway.

Independents have Karr, Gorn Commander, and Sessalak to get more mileage out of theirs.

So torpedoes just are not an issue anymore. The two factions that would use them the most have have several options. Plus everyone can use Mater Strategist or High Yields to get more efficacy.

The OPs also make torpedoes out to be worse then they really are. In an OP people are putting everything they have into 2 maybe 3 tough ships, so yeah a 5 attack torpedo doesn't seem like all that. But in bigger games of 300+ points people are not putting Paris, Sulu, and Riker all on one ship with Multi Adaptive Shields. In bigger games the buffs get spread out over the fleet, so suddenly 4 Mirandas with torpedoes is much more of an imposing thing. Not every card that is fun for casual play will work for OPs.


Yes in causal play you can setup the parameters in such a way that most likey any ship or card can be made useful to some degree. But in a flat open field with say average point settings 80-150 torps are just not as "effective" as PAV attack with Target lock. It is just a question of math and numbers. TL is just more useful with PAV then wasting it on using a torp for generally 1 extra attack die. I think the examples you cite point out that even wizkids is trying to address the issue, and yet in winning OP lists how often do we see the ships or cards you mention? I do believe the problem is fixable, my method seems to be working. And I think we will see more cards by WK that will help as well. Starting to notice cheaper torpedos as well (Mirror verse i believe).
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Sodoff Baldrick
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I'm not saying torpedoes are going to win any OPs, but for the two factions that have a usenfor them the tools already exist to make them playable. If you play feds and have 2 beefy ships you can use most of the above for a tiny 3rd ship to use torpedoes regularly. For Klingons Kargan and Drex already work well together, addi in a 3 point torpedoes is a nice way to cover your rear. The other factions just don't need torpedoes in OPs.
 
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zack like a bausch
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Enterprise-E 32
Rekar 4
Tuvok 5
Sakonna 3
Photon Torpedoes 1
Photon Torpedoes 1
Photon Torpedoes 1

Resource- High Yield Photon Torpedoes 5
This gives you strength 7 Torpedoes that can re-roll 1 blank and convert 1 battle station into a hit at the cost of disabling Tuvok, discarding the Torpedo with Rekar, and suffering an Aux to fire without a Target Lock.

Total 52 (And only 47 for the ship cost)

If you wanted to get the ship close to 50 you can add System's Upgrade for 2 and gain a shield or Tactical Stations for 2 to gain some more power with your weapons.
 
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zack like a bausch
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Or if you want better results you can change to this:
Enterprise-E 32
Rekar 4
Spock 5
Sakonna 3
Photon Torpedoes 2
Photon Torpedoes 2
Photon Torpedoes 2

Resource- High Yield Photon Torpedoes 5
This gives you strength 7 Torpedoes that can re-roll 1 blank and convert all battle stations into a hit with a scan present thanks to Spock at the cost of discarding the Torpedo with Rekar and suffering an Aux to fire without a Target Lock.

Total 55 (And only 50 for the ship cost)
 
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H. Tucker Cobey
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U.S.S Excelsior (26)
Jean-Luc Picard (6)
Systems Upgrade (2)
Mr. Spock (5)
Montgomery Scott (5)
Sakonna (3)
Dorsal Phaser Array (2)
Type 8 Phaser Array (0)
Ship SP: 47

Total Build SP: 47

Rolls 6 dice every turn, rerolls all of them, and converts all BS in twice the firing arc at the cost of disabling two shields and not using a resource.

Please don't ever use torpedoes.
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K. L.
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The problem is spending the 5 points on primary weapons in the first place with a different ship is more efficient and cheaper.

I'm in the "minor rule addition" camp. I think a clever special rule for torpedoes would add a lot to the game.
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zack like a bausch
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Type 8 Phaser Array does not boost Dorsal Phaser Array because it is a secondary weapon so it would be only 5 dice at 360 (Range 1-2) and against a cloaked ship you would most likely not get your re-roll with a Target Lock.
While I prefer to not use Photons, I offered a build to help use them not discourage others from even trying. I find many people just like to enjoy the theme of the game.
Creating some Rulebook updates for Photons, Cloaking, and many others things would be best course of action but it is not very likely Wizkids will do it anytime soon.
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Justin Hare
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skullxer0 wrote:
Type 8 Phaser Array does not boost Dorsal Phaser Array because it is a secondary weapon so it would be only 5 dice at 360 (Range 1-2) and against a cloaked ship you would most likely not get your re-roll with a Target Lock.
While I prefer to not use Photons, I offered a build to help use them not discourage others from even trying. I find many people just like to enjoy the theme of the game.
Creating some Rulebook updates for Photons, Cloaking, and many others things would be best course of action but it is not very likely Wizkids will do it anytime soon.


DPA is based on PAV. So yeah, Type 8 would actually do so indirectly
 
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Church14 wrote:
skullxer0 wrote:
Type 8 Phaser Array does not boost Dorsal Phaser Array because it is a secondary weapon so it would be only 5 dice at 360 (Range 1-2) and against a cloaked ship you would most likely not get your re-roll with a Target Lock.
While I prefer to not use Photons, I offered a build to help use them not discourage others from even trying. I find many people just like to enjoy the theme of the game.
Creating some Rulebook updates for Photons, Cloaking, and many others things would be best course of action but it is not very likely Wizkids will do it anytime soon.


DPA is based on PAV. So yeah, Type 8 would actually do so indirectly


Type 8 phaser array doesn't change your primary weapon value it only adds +1 dice to attacks with it.

Dorsal Phaser Array (Weapon) : ATTACK: You may fire this weapon in any direction. The Attack Value is equal to the ship's Primary Weapon Value. This Upgrade may only be purchased for a Federation ship with a Hull Value of 4 or greater and the SP cost is equal to the ship's Primary Weapon Value +1.

Type 8 phaser array (weapon)when attacking with your primary weapon, gain +1 attack die. This upgrade may only be purchased for a ship with a Primary Weapon Value of 3 or less. No ship may be equipped with more than one "type 8 Phaser Array" Upgrade

While DPA attack and cost is based on your primary weapon it is still not a primary weapon attack and type 8 shouldn't work with it. Note you don't get +1 dice due to range with DPA either because of it being a weapon card attack.
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Nathan M
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Mr S Baldrick wrote:

Klingons really only use torpedoes for shooting backwards so the standard 4 dice torpedoes work fine. High yields, Martok, Kargan and Klingon fleet captain make them even better.


I played High-Yields with the Enterprise E and Chang's Bird-of-Prey in the Peak Performance scenario. A version of Chang's is a standard part of my Klingon builds now, and it's the only ship that I put torpedoes on. I typically put two of the 3-point, 4 damage torpedoes on. Otherwise, I'm more likely to spend my points on Drex and N'Garen ( a far better deal for 5 points each ).
 
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H. Tucker Cobey
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tsuyoshikentsu wrote:
Rolls 6 dice every turn, rerolls all of them, and converts all BS in twice the firing arc at the cost of disabling two shields and not using a resource.


Emphasis mine.

I am well aware of how DPA works. I was referring to the forward firing arc of the Excelsior vs. that of the Enterprise-E. The fact that you get 5 dice everywhere else is just gravy.

Although if you're going to be picky (let's say picky) about the TL reroll?

Sphere 4270
Tactical Drone (Sphere)
Mr. Spock

Six dice, any direction, reroll and BS conversion against anyone.
 
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