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Subject: Chaos/Cursed Dice Set Initial Thoughts rss

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Tylor Lilley
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So two more cursed dice were revealed to be the next two stretch goals after the 80k Epic Player markers. They present an alternate win condition where if a player has all 3 cursed dice, then chaos reigns and they win!

I will say I was hoping for a 12th epic to round out the set and a couple more regular monsters over even MORE dice that go in the dungeon bag that aren't monsters. I was hoping this expansion would shift the balance back in the favor of drawing from the bag being more likely to result in a monster than in a non-monster, and while we are getting 9 new monsters (if we get the forth heart piece), we are also getting the 3 event dice AND now the 3 cursed dice that are not monsters. If anything this shoves the ratio even further away from the monsters. So there is that.

As cool as the cursed sword that you must equip is, I am also unsure of whether I want more than one of those floating around. Assuming the helm and ring are also items that are worth -1 fame and that you have to equip and cannot easily unequip, that triples the likelihood of getting "cursed" in this manner. I don't know if I like that; I like my equipment and don't want to be cursed out of it that often! If, on the other hand, the new items DON'T work the same as the cursed sword in that regard... that is also not great, as it is not intuitive that the set does not work together. So I'm not sure how to win here.

And finally, the benefit they provide in a new win condition, seems extremely unlikely to happen to me, to the point of it not being worth it at all if the items don't have any other special properties. To get all 3 items first all 3 have to be drawn, which is a feat of its own. Then add that they have to all be drawn by the SAME PERSON, and those odds skyrocket. Since there is no known way to take them from other players, and since the possibility of the alternate in is there so no one will likely trade them to someone who already has one or two of the other ones, it seems impossible to get all three for the win condition. Unless something else is added to their abilities that makes them easy to get or take from someone else, I never see this happening.

Those are my initial thoughts on the reveal of these new stretch goals. I will reserve my final judgement until we know more about what exactly these dice do, and how they work. But as I outlined above, I'm not sure what they would add to the game would be worth if over more epics and more monsters for the Colosseum expansion. I would love to hear discussion or feedback on any of these points, so please, post your thoughts below! Thanks for reading.
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David Reeves
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I agree with your thoughts. There needs to be something to allow:

a. more monsters to balance out the ratio of other things

b. Scout ability (IIRF) more available to choose encounters

c. Some other ability to hunt through the monster bag to seek out (or not) certain categories of things -- monsters or other.

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I think it really depends on what the new win condition is and whether the cursed dices does go into the monster set (has this been confirmed?)

If they act like the vorpal sword & aegis shield they may stay outside of the bags and just allowed players a way to gain access to them. Also one way I can think of to "countermeasure" the fact that all 3 has to be drawn by the same person would be making some sort of "duel" ruling, eg: whenever two or more players are in possess of the cursed die they must duel, with the winner gaining the loser's curse die (?)

It's all merely speculation though.

Personally I kind of like the idea of introducing some new "mechanic" to the game as opposed to adding more epic monsters, since there's already 10 planned epic monsters (inclusive of the lich), and with each game having only the chance to face them once or twice I think that's an okay number. More is always better, but if the cursed equipment can play a more prominent mechanic in the game I'm okay with it
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Thomas Aigner
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Don't forget the Giant as 11th epic monster as soon as we find the last heart piece ;-)

Cursed items work like the crown, they go in the monster bag and you can duel for them
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Tylor Lilley
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genesyx wrote:

Personally I kind of like the idea of introducing some new "mechanic" to the game as opposed to adding more epic monsters, since there's already 10 planned epic monsters (inclusive of the lich), and with each game having only the chance to face them once or twice I think that's an okay number. More is always better, but if the cursed equipment can play a more prominent mechanic in the game I'm okay with it


Me too! I think they could be cool if done correctly; there was just a few things I thought of when they were first revealed.

From Potluck in the Kickstarter comments:

"Players will be allowed to duel for the cursed items, just like with the crown.
Full set is automatic win.
Set of two will have more complicated win condition."

So there's that as well. That helps a lot with the last point form my post!
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Tylor Lilley
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thomasa wrote:
Don't forget the Giant as 11th epic monster as soon as we find the last heart piece ;-)

Cursed items work like the crown, they go in the monster bag and you can duel for them


No, this is not true, the Giant will be a regular monster. As stated by potluck on at least one occasion in the KS comments:

"I had planned on a Giant next, a regular monster. But a cursed item could be cool." About 3 Days ago
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Paco Electric Taco Mak
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I am kinda disappointed about the whole full set = auto win, was hoping for a twist.

It does make sense for the duel part. The more cursed item you possess, the more controlled by the demon, and want the whole body to be reunited.

However, not a fan of compulsory pvp :/
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Tinzky wrote:
I am kinda disappointed about the whole full set = auto win, was hoping for a twist.

It does make sense for the duel part. The more cursed item you possess, the more controlled by the demon, and want the whole body to be reunited.

However, not a fan of compulsory pvp :/


But but but... the event dice in colosseum has exactly that whistle

Anyway yes, full set= auto win is a bit dull-ish, though given the unlikelihood of having all 3 out and under the same player, I guess this just forces players to do more duels, along with it being an "extra way" of helping someone off their curse die

p/s: Looking forward to what happens when there's only 2!
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Thomas Aigner
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tylorlilley wrote:
thomasa wrote:
Don't forget the Giant as 11th epic monster as soon as we find the last heart piece ;-)

Cursed items work like the crown, they go in the monster bag and you can duel for them


No, this is not true, the Giant will be a regular monster. As stated by potluck on at least one occasion in the KS comments:

"I had planned on a Giant next, a regular monster. But a cursed item could be cool." About 3 Days ago


Oh sorry, mea culpa, seems I missed that :/
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Sam Coates
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I wanted to address the monster ratio in the monster bag. From my experience, which factors in a ton of games, what players want most on a turn is to roll dice and fight something. The event dice are not disappointing in this respect, and I think they should be counted with monster dice if you're concerned about down turns.

That said, my personal copy has a higher ratio of non-combat dice than you get with guilds alone, and it hasn't been an issue. Class dice disappear permanently from the bag when drawn, and the game tends to speed up the longer it's played. This usually results in some preparation turns to start with, and then more monster killing.

All right, on to the actual cursed dice. Keep in mind that a player is not going to draw all three cursed dice. To get all three, you're going to have to take them. This is a new concept that just happened to seem particularly fun to me when it was suggested, but I'm confident it can be balanced regardless of how many we end with.

I believe that, like the crown, players will find that they are wasting turns unless they happen to be the strongest player. And defeating all other players is a suitable wining condition for a villain.
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Kip Kwiatkowski
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Scoates2 wrote:
Keep in mind that a player is not going to draw all three cursed dice.


Well...Statistically unlikely. And Luck DOES affect the Monster bag, right? Ranger with a bow and Luck Dagger would rock the cursed items, especially if the sword is his last draw.
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Juan Anzaldo
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I'm also not a fan of compulsory behaivour mechanisms, but one of the key elements of Dungeon Dice as a whole is player interaction.

After I got my set from Guilds, I did some test run by myself simulating a 2-player game and I must say that as a solitary game with no special rules, Dungeon Dice miss some aspects. I feel one of the uniqueness of the design is taking into account player interaction and negotiation for it to really shine.

Given the above, I feel that they 3 items, you win condition has a good integration to the overall concept. You need to keep track of what the players are doing (how much experience do you have? Do you already have 3 Fame and you only need 2 XP to get to 3rd level?). Now you need to keep track if the cursed items are in play and who has them.

Only thing that I really need to check is the rules for duels and how you can keep swapping the cursed items around.

P.S. I have tried the special one player rules and have found them really good. They are a little on the luck-of-the-roll side, but they re more fun than trying to play to players as a solitary.
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Jeff Mosbaugh
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I'm interested to see the mechanics, and as such plan to withhold final judgement. I'm always down for a new method of gameplay, and if it turns out the cursed rules don't mesh well with my group's style of gameplay, since we are not Kip, we can house rule something more to our liking, or just not play with them. I can see the sword being in the monster bag, and the other two being like the Vorpal Sword and Aegis, claimed in place or artifacts. Would keep a player making a run for the cursed win conditions from becoming too powerful too fast if they cost him artifacts, and would be up to the player to pursue that line of winning or not - if there isn'ta sacrificial way to get rid of a cursed item, like sacrifice an exp or two or an artifact, then we will probably just house rule that as well. My greatest concern is the funding level needed to get there... $20k in 4 days and change seems ambitious, but I missed the first 2 campaigns so I don't know what kind of end run funding surge we might or might not be expecting. Either way, this game is a staple on my table (bear in mind, my gaming group is myself and my 3 teenage kids), and on vacation. It can be played on the tiny table in most hotel rooms or on the floor, and has seen a number of picnic tables at campgrounds as well - and dice are more resistant to spilled beer than card games are!
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Donn Hardy
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kgk4569 wrote:
Scoates2 wrote:
Keep in mind that a player is not going to draw all three cursed dice.


Well...Statistically unlikely. And Luck DOES affect the Monster bag, right? Ranger with a bow and Luck Dagger would rock the cursed items, especially if the sword is his last draw.


Luck only works on reward bags.
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Kip Kwiatkowski
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donnbobhardy wrote:
kgk4569 wrote:
Scoates2 wrote:
Keep in mind that a player is not going to draw all three cursed dice.


Well...Statistically unlikely. And Luck DOES affect the Monster bag, right? Ranger with a bow and Luck Dagger would rock the cursed items, especially if the sword is his last draw.


Luck only works on reward bags.
Ah good. That's how I play it, but I remember someone mentioning using it to draw monsters. To many rules and rulings in my head, I get confused between real rules we don't use and fake rules people suggested/misinterpreted.

Still, the Ranger with a Bow stands a much better chance of drawing all 3. Especially from those that removed all duplicates from the boosters.
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Gregg Jewell
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kgk4569 wrote:
donnbobhardy wrote:
kgk4569 wrote:
Scoates2 wrote:
Keep in mind that a player is not going to draw all three cursed dice.


Well...Statistically unlikely. And Luck DOES affect the Monster bag, right? Ranger with a bow and Luck Dagger would rock the cursed items, especially if the sword is his last draw.


Luck only works on reward bags.
Ah good. That's how I play it, but I remember someone mentioning using it to draw monsters. To many rules and rulings in my head, I get confused between real rules we don't use and fake rules people suggested/misinterpreted.

Still, the Ranger with a Bow stands a much better chance of drawing all 3. Especially from those that removed all duplicates from the boosters.


Would HUNT from a bow even work to take cursed items? I assumed it would only apply to choosing a monster.

HUNT - The hero may draw two monsters from the monster bag on each turn, instead of one, and may choose to roll either one.

If you must, just add a note in the rules: When a cursed item is drawn with HUNT, temporarily set it aside and draw from the monster bag again.
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Sam Coates
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Really, this has always been the benefit of choosing the hunt ability over stronger equipment.
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Kip Kwiatkowski
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What if the Reward from the Werewolf Lord WAS the Cursed Ring? And the Ring's ability would be "Beast Form"? The Ring could be worth -1 Fame and Have the faces: 0, 0, 1, 1, 2, 2. You would roll it before battle and SWAP the indicated number of your Level Dice with that many dice the monster would roll. Thematically this would be explained that you are growing powerful in comparison to the monster, not the monster getting weaker. Logically this would solve the supply issues, cause the "Chaos Reigns" win to be rare, and cause it to come out late in the game. It would also keep the Ranger from being able to "mill" the monster bag for the required components.
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Tylor Lilley
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Scoates2 wrote:
Really, this has always been the benefit of choosing the hunt ability over stronger equipment.


Yes, the hunt ability is balanced as is by being worse for actual battle. I see no reason to change how it would work with the cursed dice - especially given that, if you are forced to equip the cursed sword, you couldn't use a bow to hunt or be the ranger in the first place! makes it even more unlikely to be broken with the hunt-type abilities.
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Gregg Jewell
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Can the ring be taken from the werewolf lord then? If yes, hes useless afterward. If not, only the player with werewolf trophy can ever try for the winning condition.
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Tylor Lilley
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kgk4569 wrote:
What if the Reward from the Werewolf Lord WAS the Cursed Ring? And the Ring's ability would be "Beast Form"? The Ring could be worth -1 Fame and Have the faces: 0, 0, 1, 1, 2, 2. You would roll it before battle and SWAP the indicated number of your Level Dice with that many dice the monster would roll. Thematically this would be explained that you are growing powerful in comparison to the monster, not the monster getting weaker. Logically this would solve the supply issues, cause the "Chaos Reigns" win to be rare, and cause it to come out late in the game. It would also keep the Ranger from being able to "mill" the monster bag for the required components.


Seeing epic monsters seems to happen, once or maybe twice per game. And at a (current) 1/10 chance to get the werewolf, that seems like it would make it needlessly difficult to get the cursed ring. I like them both the way they are now better, and as pointed out above, if you are collecting cursed items, the sword at least will already override the bow .
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JewellGames wrote:
Can the ring be taken from the werewolf lord then? If yes, hes useless afterward. If not, only the player with werewolf trophy can ever try for the winning condition.


Even worse, if the werewolf Lord doesn't come out, then the whole winning condition would just be gone, leaving 2 cursed dice.
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Kip Kwiatkowski
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JewellGames wrote:

HUNT - The hero may draw two monsters from the monster bag on each turn, instead of one, and may choose to roll either one.


Ouch, OUCH! I just realized that the literal interpretation of this rule is that you CAN NOT draw unattended treasures, shrines, traps, Class dice, Familiars, or Cursed Items....

I think this rule needs fixed already.

@Potluck: Bows and spears aren't really that bad of weapons. Especially with the inclusion of the Ranger (which can allow you to rerol the monster die sometimes), and armor and daggers (which add damage without taking hands). And spears make a great combo with whips and swords. So the addition of HUNT isn't really making up for anything.
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Tylor Lilley
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Scoates2 wrote:
I wanted to address the monster ratio in the monster bag. From my experience, which factors in a ton of games, what players want most on a turn is to roll dice and fight something. The event dice are not disappointing in this respect, and I think they should be counted with monster dice if you're concerned about down turns.

That said, my personal copy has a higher ratio of non-combat dice than you get with guilds alone, and it hasn't been an issue. Class dice disappear permanently from the bag when drawn, and the game tends to speed up the longer it's played. This usually results in some preparation turns to start with, and then more monster killing.

All right, on to the actual cursed dice. Keep in mind that a player is not going to draw all three cursed dice. To get all three, you're going to have to take them. This is a new concept that just happened to seem particularly fun to me when it was suggested, but I'm confident it can be balanced regardless of how many we end with.

I believe that, like the crown, players will find that they are wasting turns unless they happen to be the strongest player. And defeating all other players is a suitable wining condition for a villain.


I will take your word for it about the ratio of monsters to non-combat dice then! I trust your judgement on theses things for some reason... hah .

Knowing you will be able to take them from other players does help a little. But I do not know what you mean by defeating all other players as a wining condition; has something like that been said before and I missed it?

Really, what will make or break my excitement for these is learning what ELSE the cursed die do. Whether they are all -1 fame and auto-equip and hard to unequipped or not, and what the helm and ring DO for the bearer, as we know the sword is just a powerful two handed weapon. Which is cool! If the other two are suitably cool than I'm sure they will be a hit for me and my group as well - I would think that only one cursed die would come up much more often then just two cursed dice. What they do in the absence of their game-altering combination abilities will be just as if not more important to how they play, I think.

And an unsolicited suggestion for the win condition with two artifacts - If they are all worth -1 fame, maybe a player can only win if they have NEGATIVE total fame with both artifacts. That would help reward a player who's behind on one win condition, the standard fame one, band encourage them to maybe go for this alternate one more so than the other players. I don't know, I'm just spitballing here.
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Tylor Lilley
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kgk4569 wrote:
JewellGames wrote:

HUNT - The hero may draw two monsters from the monster bag on each turn, instead of one, and may choose to roll either one.


Ouch, OUCH! I just realized that the literal interpretation of this rule is that you CAN NOT draw unattended treasures, shrines, traps, Class dice, Familiars, or Cursed Items....

I think this rule needs fixed already.

@Potluck: Bows and spears aren't really that bad of weapons. Especially with the inclusion of the Ranger (which can allow you to rerol the monster die sometimes), and armor and daggers (which add damage without taking hands). And spears make a great combo with whips and swords. So the addition of HUNT isn't really making up for anything.


Yeah, HUNT should probably just read draw two DICE and not draw two MONSTERS, to match the function.

As for your next paragraph, I don't know what you're talking about; the spears have nothing to do with drawing extra dice, and the bows all have much worse numbers and NO combat abilities compared to similar dice. Two one-handed weapons or a hammer or axe will definitely be better than a bow in terms of combat value and value in combat gained from their abilities. This is why potluck is saying that hunt is balanced. I'm not seeing what spears have to do with that.

And daggers and armor can add damage and things to any set of equipment, so again I'm not seeing how their inclusion makes specifically bows better than any other weapon you could have at that same time.
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