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Subject: Yay, I'm so glad it's official now! rss

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Dave Chandler
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I've been playtesting this one a bit and you folks are in for a treat. So many fun crazy new mechanics. Great breath of fresh air into Eclipse.
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Heiko Günther
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Care to share a bit more information?
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Dave Chandler
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I'd LOVE to... but I don't really want to spoil anything Sampo wants to keep close to the vest.

He's said a few times the theme of the expansion is change and evolution. I think that says it well. You'll have the ability to evolve and modify your race as you move forward, even choosing and changing HOW you score points.
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Radosław Michalak
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You say nothing and still you say A LOT!

I can't wait!
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Seal Bludgeoner
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djc6535 wrote:
I've been playtesting this one a bit and you folks are in for a treat. So many fun crazy new mechanics. Great breath of fresh air into Eclipse.



Just what I didn't want to hear. I wonder how much of Eclipse's success can be credited to its high BGG ranking. I anticipate that ranking slipping with expansions that create extra rules. This is currently one of my favourite games. It will be harder to get to the table (as if it isn't hard enough already!) with extra confusion.
 
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Stefan Lopuszanski
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Seal Bludgeoner wrote:
djc6535 wrote:
I've been playtesting this one a bit and you folks are in for a treat. So many fun crazy new mechanics. Great breath of fresh air into Eclipse.



Just what I didn't want to hear. I wonder how much of Eclipse's success can be credited to its high BGG ranking. I anticipate that ranking slipping with expansions that create extra rules. This is currently one of my favourite games. It will be harder to get to the table (as if it isn't hard enough already!) with extra confusion.


Then don't get or include every single aspect of the expansion?

It isn't mandatory... What would you instead prefer to have in an expansion if not more complexity and new ways to play the game? What would make an expansion worth it to you? More of the same? That just adds randomness without giving something new to try out.
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Seal Bludgeoner
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Stexe wrote:
Seal Bludgeoner wrote:
djc6535 wrote:
I've been playtesting this one a bit and you folks are in for a treat. So many fun crazy new mechanics. Great breath of fresh air into Eclipse.



Just what I didn't want to hear. I wonder how much of Eclipse's success can be credited to its high BGG ranking. I anticipate that ranking slipping with expansions that create extra rules. This is currently one of my favourite games. It will be harder to get to the table (as if it isn't hard enough already!) with extra confusion.


Then don't get or include every single aspect of the expansion?

It isn't mandatory... What would you instead prefer to have in an expansion if not more complexity and new ways to play the game? What would make an expansion worth it to you? More of the same? That just adds randomness without giving something new to try out.


I'd be happy with a ship pack #2 and a few more random tiles.
 
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Stefan Lopuszanski
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Seal Bludgeoner wrote:
Stexe wrote:
Seal Bludgeoner wrote:
djc6535 wrote:
I've been playtesting this one a bit and you folks are in for a treat. So many fun crazy new mechanics. Great breath of fresh air into Eclipse.



Just what I didn't want to hear. I wonder how much of Eclipse's success can be credited to its high BGG ranking. I anticipate that ranking slipping with expansions that create extra rules. This is currently one of my favourite games. It will be harder to get to the table (as if it isn't hard enough already!) with extra confusion.


Then don't get or include every single aspect of the expansion?

It isn't mandatory... What would you instead prefer to have in an expansion if not more complexity and new ways to play the game? What would make an expansion worth it to you? More of the same? That just adds randomness without giving something new to try out.


I'd be happy with a ship pack #2 and a few more random tiles.


That isn't really a full expansion. That's more like a micro-expansion thing that you might find on the BGG store. I'm sure there are fan made stuff that you could include that would satiate your needs in that department.
 
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Seal Bludgeoner
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Stexe wrote:
Seal Bludgeoner wrote:
Stexe wrote:
Seal Bludgeoner wrote:
djc6535 wrote:
I've been playtesting this one a bit and you folks are in for a treat. So many fun crazy new mechanics. Great breath of fresh air into Eclipse.



Just what I didn't want to hear. I wonder how much of Eclipse's success can be credited to its high BGG ranking. I anticipate that ranking slipping with expansions that create extra rules. This is currently one of my favourite games. It will be harder to get to the table (as if it isn't hard enough already!) with extra confusion.


Then don't get or include every single aspect of the expansion?

It isn't mandatory... What would you instead prefer to have in an expansion if not more complexity and new ways to play the game? What would make an expansion worth it to you? More of the same? That just adds randomness without giving something new to try out.


I'd be happy with a ship pack #2 and a few more random tiles.


That isn't really a full expansion. That's more like a micro-expansion thing that you might find on the BGG store. I'm sure there are fan made stuff that you could include that would satiate your needs in that department.


Ship pack #1 was a full expansion and had pretty much what I described.
 
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Stefan Lopuszanski
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Seal Bludgeoner wrote:
Stexe wrote:
Seal Bludgeoner wrote:
Stexe wrote:
Seal Bludgeoner wrote:
djc6535 wrote:
I've been playtesting this one a bit and you folks are in for a treat. So many fun crazy new mechanics. Great breath of fresh air into Eclipse.



Just what I didn't want to hear. I wonder how much of Eclipse's success can be credited to its high BGG ranking. I anticipate that ranking slipping with expansions that create extra rules. This is currently one of my favourite games. It will be harder to get to the table (as if it isn't hard enough already!) with extra confusion.


Then don't get or include every single aspect of the expansion?

It isn't mandatory... What would you instead prefer to have in an expansion if not more complexity and new ways to play the game? What would make an expansion worth it to you? More of the same? That just adds randomness without giving something new to try out.


I'd be happy with a ship pack #2 and a few more random tiles.


That isn't really a full expansion. That's more like a micro-expansion thing that you might find on the BGG store. I'm sure there are fan made stuff that you could include that would satiate your needs in that department.


Ship pack #1 was a full expansion and had pretty much what I described.


Buy some place (or even metal!) space ships online and photocopy race boards. Ta-da! You have what you wanted!
 
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Heiko Günther
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Seal Bludgeoner wrote:
Ship pack #1 was a full expansion and had pretty much what I described.
To be true, it is more of a mini-expansion. The main thing about ship pack 1 seems to be the ships, basically alternate pawns, which don't 'expand' the game a lot.

To get back to your earlier comment; I strongly doubt that a new expansion makes ratings drop, because the game "becomes more confusing". Players that are not interested in additional (btw optional) rules will probably just ignore this expansion.
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Robert Purdon

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^^ Agreed. And honestly I don't really care if its rating were to drop a bit, because it wouldn't change my opinion at all.

I can't WAIT for this expansion, and by god I will make it work with my Daedalus insert!
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Jon Baxter
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Most people I know found Ship Pack 1 to be a huge disappointment, and I can understand why.

However, in my case, I got it for the ships.

And now for some general comments because I felt like typing I suppose... *shoves grains of salt in yer mouth-holes* meeple

Overall Eclipse is mostly a meh game, it's missing something, and from the sounds of it so far it's not going to be getting what it needs.

Funny enough, without even knowing that Eclipse and Nations were done by the same company I knew it as soon as I played Nations for the first time after it came out, another meh game that is missing something.

Having said that, I like both Eclipse and Nations, of course 99% of the time when people are presented with either they'll want to play something else in the same genre;

Twilight Imperium or Through The Ages. Both Eclipse and Nations suffer from missing a certain je n'est c'est quoi in addition to the obvious missing concepts. Both those games are supposed to fill a niche by being (much) faster and (much) simpler and (much) easier... Eclipse certainly doesn't do that, nations does but only to minor degrees. In both cases I've been hoping that some expansion will come out that will not make those games slower, complex, or difficult, nothing so far...

And another thing, Nations The Dice Game, nice concept dice games, might as well play Yahtzee though if the theme and interaction isn't there. Not to harp on that game specifically, Roll Through The Ages and Roll for the Galaxy have the same problems. It's funny, I doubt any would have ever been made if they weren't leaning heavily on their namesake games and companies trying to rake in a little cash.

Ah well, everything has its place I suppose, hopefully these rolling games will be some sort of gateway level of gaming to the good stuff.





 
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Heiko Günther
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jgbaxter wrote:
Overall Eclipse is mostly a meh game, it's missing something, and from the sounds of it so far it's not going to be getting what it needs.
I have no idea what you are talking about here. This sounds like nonsense.

jgbaxter wrote:
Funny enough, without even knowing that Eclipse and Nations were done by the same company I knew it as soon as I played Nations for the first time after it came out, another meh game that is missing something.
Nations fell flat for me as well. But, if I am not mistaken, those two games are from different designers.

jgbaxter wrote:
Having said that, I like both Eclipse and Nations, of course 99% of the time when people are presented with either they'll want to play something else in the same genre;
I have never experienced this. 99% of the time when people are presented with something else they'll want to play Eclipse.

jgbaxter wrote:
Twilight Imperium or Through The Ages. Both Eclipse and Nations suffer from missing a certain je n'est c'est quoi in addition to the obvious missing concepts. Both those games are supposed to fill a niche by being (much) faster and (much) simpler and (much) easier... Eclipse certainly doesn't do that, nations does but only to minor degrees. In both cases I've been hoping that some expansion will come out that will not make those games slower, complex, or difficult, nothing so far...
TI is a completely different game. Je ne sais pas why people keep bringing it up. Again, I wonder what you are talking about when you say "obvious missing concepts". If your games of Eclipse are not (much) faster and (much) simpler and (much) easier than your games of TI, you're doing it wrong. I am starting to get the feeling that you are just kidding.
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Stefan Lopuszanski
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lee elektrik wrote:

jgbaxter wrote:
Twilight Imperium or Through The Ages. Both Eclipse and Nations suffer from missing a certain je n'est c'est quoi in addition to the obvious missing concepts. Both those games are supposed to fill a niche by being (much) faster and (much) simpler and (much) easier... Eclipse certainly doesn't do that, nations does but only to minor degrees. In both cases I've been hoping that some expansion will come out that will not make those games slower, complex, or difficult, nothing so far...
TI is a completely different game. Je ne sais pas why people keep bringing it up. Again, I wonder what you are talking about when you say "obvious missing concepts". If your games of Eclipse are not (much) faster and (much) simpler and (much) easier than your games of TI, you're doing it wrong. I am starting to get the feeling that you are just kidding.


The "missing thing" is structured politics / trading (something more than just ambassadors). That would be a nice expansion to include to give it a more 4x feel. Yes, they are different games, but they have many similarities. I enjoy both of them an do wish that there was a tiny bit more to Eclipse. Looking forward to this expansion to see if this does that without adding politics. Both TI3 and Eclipse are in my top 10 favorites so obviously I love them both.
 
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Dérek Boily
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jgbaxter wrote:
"je ne sais quoi"


FTFY
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Stefan Lopuszanski
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MrLeRobot wrote:
jgbaxter wrote:
"je ne sais quoi"


FTFY


Figures a Quebecian would.
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jgbaxter wrote:
Most people I know found Ship Pack 1 to be a huge disappointment, and I can understand why.


A disappointment for *existing*, or a disappointment 'cause they bought an expansion that was clearly advertised as containing 6 sets of space ship minis and not really new rules or expansion materials or anything, and then being all "Man. This only contains 6 sets of space ship minis and not really new rules or expansion materials or anything. I'm disappointed."?
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bakija wrote:
A disappointment for *existing*, or a disappointment 'cause they bought an expansion that was clearly advertised as containing 6 sets of space ship minis and not really new rules or expansion materials or anything, and then being all "Man. This only contains 6 sets of space ship minis and not really new rules or expansion materials or anything. I'm disappointed."?

"Oh man, I can't wait to see what the Eclipse guys come up with next.....alternate minis? That's it?"

I didn't buy it, but I was disappointed that "the next Eclipse thing to look forward to" was something with no gameplay impact.
 
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David A.
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bakija wrote:
jgbaxter wrote:
Most people I know found Ship Pack 1 to be a huge disappointment, and I can understand why.


A disappointment for *existing*, or a disappointment 'cause they bought an expansion that was clearly advertised as containing 6 sets of space ship minis and not really new rules or expansion materials or anything, and then being all "Man. This only contains 6 sets of space ship minis and not really new rules or expansion materials or anything. I'm disappointed."?


Speaking from MY experience: A disappointment for quality of received content. I clearly knew what I was buying: 6 set of ships, quality comparable to original sets of ships + some other stuff. Instead plastic is much worse, promised detail not up to par, and manufacturing details awful.

Other than that, turn order is/was used sparingly, additional tokens and GCDS' are well received.

But this is huge off-topic...
 
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jgbaxter wrote:

Twilight Imperium or Through The Ages. Both Eclipse and Nations suffer from missing a certain je n'est c'est quoi in addition to the obvious missing concepts. Both those games are supposed to fill a niche by being (much) faster and (much) simpler and (much) easier... Eclipse certainly doesn't do that, nations does but only to minor degrees. In both cases I've been hoping that some expansion will come out that will not make those games slower, complex, or difficult, nothing so far...

And another thing, Nations The Dice Game, nice concept dice games, might as well play Yahtzee though if the theme and interaction isn't there. Not to harp on that game specifically, Roll Through The Ages and Roll for the Galaxy have the same problems. It's funny, I doubt any would have ever been made if they weren't leaning heavily on their namesake games and companies trying to rake in a little cash.


What similar game is being chosen over Eclipse? Generally speaking we choose eclipse over TI. TI certainly has a place in my heart and the flavor is better but Eclipse plays smoother, streamlined and fast for a 4x game. I can't comment on Nations as I haven't played it but Civ certainly isn't reaching the table very often.

Roll for the Galaxy is getting played a lot more than Race for the Galaxy and has just as much interaction as Race. I really liked Race but some people that didn't like it do like roll so for me its a win. I certainly wouldn't compare it to yatzee but I do agree that they are much more accessible i.e gateway game.
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jgbaxter wrote:

Overall Eclipse is mostly a meh game, it's missing something, and from the sounds of it so far it's not going to be getting what it needs.

Having said that, I like both Eclipse and Nations, of course 99% of the time when people are presented with either they'll want to play something else in the same genre;

Eclipse certainly doesn't do that (But TI3 does by implication).


The contention that TI3 is picked over Eclipse 99% of the time just isn't true. While certain media channels (the DT) don't like Eclipse, their opinion hasn't really crystalized into a "99% fact" like you suggest. Eclipse is number 10 on the BGG ratings with 3k more ratings than TI3 and has been out for less time. Those are actual facts which show that whether you like it or not - Eclipse has actually become the more popular game - and not just because it's shorter.

As for whether Eclipse is a "meh game" - I think you couldn't be more incorrect - but that's all subjective. I'm just clarifying that you're post about the "fact" that TI3 is picked 99% of the time over Eclipse is demonstrably untrue.
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Jon Baxter
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I don't recall writing the word "fact".

So I doubt your post has much relevance.

Since I was clearly writing in the first person the text of the post relates to me.

Now if you want to take it further, then 99% of the games I've ever heard of, seen, heard discussed, or read about online, also prefer TI3 to Eclipse and Through the Ages to Nations.

Clearly all that is fact.

Clearly all that is relevant on a personal basis.

Moreover, your comments about the rating of any game or the amount of ratings is tragically faulty to the point that it would be mostly irrelevant.

The simple fact of the matter is that ratings on BGG are inherently inaccurate and only provide a more general view, further to that is your very comment that TI3 has been out longer than Eclipse specifically goes to my point about inaccuracies in that methodology.

People tend to rate games when they first get them or play them, those ratings can change but rarely do on any sort of large scale from my experience and knowledge of BGG use. So the older a game is the less likely people have rated it, while one could say that is a general comment they could be right, but only generally too.

It's ludicrous to say that more people play Eclipse than TI3 based on both sales numbers and my seeing games played or hearing about them, or seeing them listed at events I didn't attend.

So your "facts" are not at all accurate and are inherently flawed. My "facts" are not facts at all as I've never presented them as such other than on my personal experience and knowledge. Both your "facts" and my opinion are the same- opinions.


There's no doubt about to me that Eclipse is a meh game, and that's from both my experience and that of everyone I've ever spoken to that have played both.

The complaint about TI3 that is typical is that it's long (for inexperienced players sure- however I've finished many a "long" game of TI3 in 5hrs).

The complaint about Eclipse is that round 4-7 are extremely boring and very little happens other than refitting of ships and the occasional if rare battle. And short games of Eclipse I dont' find as short either.

With similar numbers of players it seems that they are both in the same 'ballpark' (note that when I say they are both in the same 'ballpark' I'm not actually stating a fact that they are actually in a ballpark like Ridley Field or some such heh).

So in closing while I appreciate your efforts to say something is demonstrably untrue, you have no 'facts' to present, just an opinion based on numbers that are inherently inaccurate in the first place.

Of course my point is that Eclipse is certainly a meh game, there are a tiny fraction of things to do and ways to play Eclipse, TI3 have so very much more that is without dispute that the very options of a very solid game make it much better than meh.

I'm not saying Eclipse is garbage, my rating of the game definitely makes it playable to me and I do suggest it for people that want a less complex and dynamic game than TI3 in a slightly shorter timeframe.


Personally I think that both Eclipse and Nations need a good (as opposed to the 'meh') expansions to make them much more interesting and long lived.

One thing I can say without equivocation is that the value for money is certainly something that Eclipse has absolutely not the least chance of being better thatn Twilight Imperium. The later has so much more in way of components and production values that it's without all doubt the better value. Now that's from a neutral standpoint, if someone likes Eclipse more than TI3 they will certainly play the one over the other and long term value for dollar would be measured with a slant, if a person liked both then or TI3 more then the value of the Ti3 to them based on both playtime and enjoyment as well as value of the game itself would be for TI3.


In conclusion the only "facts" I've stated here that are not opinion are;

1) That your facts aren't facts.

2) That in general older games on BGG get less ratings over new games.

3) That in general BGG ratings don't change by much and that people don't typically keep their ratings "up to date".


meeple




 
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Heiko Günther
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Ah, I was about to take the bait and answer again. Basically what I already wrote a few comments above. Only using more words. For your convenience, I deleted it.
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