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Shadows of Brimstone: City of the Ancients» Forums » General

Subject: New Wave 1.5 Info rss

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Adam Harrison
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FFP gave backers a new update last night.

For non-backers, this should be a good indication of what products will be coming out in the near future.

"That being said, we are currently still on track to deliver Wave 1.5 in early Fall...

What is Wave 1.5

First, let's be sure that everyone understands what Wave 1.5 is about. During the Pledge Manager, we offered an option for KS Backers to purchase an extra shipping wave (Wave 1.5) between Wave 1 (the actual Core Game Sets, KS Exclusive Outlaw, Paint Sets) and Wave 2 (Everything else, once every last bit is completed). The biggest two questions we receive about Wave 1.5 are "What will be in Wave 1.5?" and "Will you re-open Wave 1.5 so I can purchase that option?"

What Will be in Wave 1.5?

It's still too early to know exactly what will be contained in Wave 1.5. We have many miniature sets in production, but problems can crop up and we'll get a better picture as we get closer to the Fall. Right now, we estimate that it should include:

Caverns of Cynder OtherWorld Expansion
Lava Men
Expanded Frontier Town Expansion
Bandits
DarkStone Brutes (Minecart or Add-on)
The Guardian (Minecart or Add-on)
Trun Hunters (Add-on)
Sourge Rats
Serpentmen Warriors
Serpentmen Shaman
Void Sorcerers
Void Hounds
Doorways Set (Minecart or Add-on)
Trederran Raiders
Harvesters
The Burrower (Minecart or Add-on)
Dead Man's Bounty Game Supplement
Treasures of the Void Game Supplement
Badlands Expedition Game Supplement
Targa Artifacts Game Supplement (Add-on)
Jargono Artifacts Game Supplement (Add-on)
Cynder Artifacts Game Supplement (Add-on)
Blank Card Set: Threats (Add-on)
Blank Card Set: Mine (Add-on)
Blank Card Set: Jargono (Add-on)
Blank Card Set: Targa (Add-on)
Prospector Hero Class - with Male and Female Miniatures
Orphan Hero Class - with Male and Female Miniatures
Drifter Hero Class - with Male and Female Miniatures
Outlaw Hero Miniatures - Male and Female
Additional Enemy Sets
Additional Game Supplement Card Sets

The retail value of the items contained in Wave 1.5 is estimated at over $600! Please note that none of these items are set in stone. If a problem crops up with one of these items, it may not make it into Wave 1.5. We also know now that Wave 1.5 will not have any Mission Packs or OtherWorld Expansions beyond Caverns of Cynder.

Will you re-open Wave 1.5 so I can purchase that option?

I think everyone will agree that this seems like a no-brainer - people get stuff earlier and are even willing to pay for shipping to do it! But, it's not that obvious a decision. We have learned some hard lessons during this KS experience - we had to hire on many temporary workers during Wave 1 and it still took months to get all the orders out. Shipping within the EU is filled with difficulties that we did not foresee. Also, Wave 1.5 will be different for every backer - some are Minecart, some are Outlaw, some added Trun or a Guardian or a Burrower, others did not. So, each order will be unique. Long story short, we are planning to add Wave 1.5 shipping for purchase in the Web Store in September for $50 within the USA and $125 International.

We are planning to ship Wave 1.5 from the USA and the cost will cover shipping and hiring staff to process orders. We are currently estimating that Wave 1.5 could start shipping out sometime in October and we will begin with international orders to even out travel time.
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Simon White
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I posted something similar on the KS comments, but $600 worth of product, plus $125 of shipping I'd have to pay something like $283 to get in on wave 1.5 (shipping+taxes+handling fee). This is a joke - it's almost half of what I spent on this KS to begin with.

I do hope they return to EU based shipping for wave 2, otherwise things may get very nasty with the level of import taxes EU backers will be expected to pay.
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Ted Swalwell
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From what I remember, wave 1.5 shipping was always going to be from the US-only (at least, I'd gotten the idea in my head that Wave 1 and 2 were EU shipped, wave 1.5 US before reading this update).
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J Ry
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SirTainly wrote:
I posted something similar on the KS comments, but $600 worth of product, plus $125 of shipping I'd have to pay something like $283 to get in on wave 1.5 (shipping+taxes+handling fee). This is a joke - it's almost half of what I spent on this KS to begin with.

I do hope they return to EU based shipping for wave 2, otherwise things may get very nasty with the level of import taxes EU backers will be expected to pay.


They shouldnt be qouting MSRP on the invoice for imports correct?
Shouldnt it be price paid?
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J Ry
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Past that, while the update was awesome for people in on wave 1.5 and im looking forward to everything coming in at wave 2, I dont care for the veiled insults towards other companies, whether deserved or not.
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ropya wrote:
SirTainly wrote:
I posted something similar on the KS comments, but $600 worth of product, plus $125 of shipping I'd have to pay something like $283 to get in on wave 1.5 (shipping+taxes+handling fee). This is a joke - it's almost half of what I spent on this KS to begin with.

I do hope they return to EU based shipping for wave 2, otherwise things may get very nasty with the level of import taxes EU backers will be expected to pay.


They shouldnt be qouting MSRP on the invoice for imports correct?
Shouldnt it be price paid?


Depends what it is. Paid addons are easy, they can list to at the price they charged. "Free" stretch goals could technically be listed either with its appropriate % of the base pledge cost or with its manufacturing cost, whichever is higher. If the prices seem too low customs may request proof and hold the package until they are satisfied they got ever possible cent.
 
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Simon White
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And customs have been known to use the UK retail price for the item as the basis for charging the VAT, regardless of what was paid when there was a dispute.
 
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Njorl
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ropya wrote:
Past that, while the update was awesome for people in on wave 1.5 and im looking forward to everything coming in at wave 2, I dont care for the veiled insults towards other companies, whether deserved or not.


Hopefully it will also be good for people who want in on 1.5 in the US since the cost is only $10 more than the original charge at the time of the pledge manager.

The whole wording was unnecessary on the part of FFP. They could have accurately expressed their current situation without any insults.

A lot of projects in kickstarter will have a "why kickstarter" blurb, but I don't see one for Shadows. I think this would be a good place to set the expectations (even implicit ones) and accurately convey what stage of development/production you are funding (for instance is this a reprint etc).

FFP had no mention of the time it takes to create, balance, integrate, and fully flesh out new content (lets call this design and implentation). While adding any one character, enemy, or other world would be relatively simple to design and implement, all of the content taken together and developed as a whole (instead of piecemeal with an agile approach to development), would be wildly variable and unpredictable. Personally I see this a lot in software development, and is why the agile process has become very popular even if it is extremely painful to adopt(http://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html).

I would be highly suspicious of any timeframes given by a kickstarter that is attempting to produce the wide array of extra content that is coming in wave 1.5 and 2.

I'm definitely in favor of a company communicating timeframes and estimates since it is hard to determine how a customer or investor will interpret implicit or unstated design constraints. I'm sure though that if I sat down and did a burndown chart of all the work involved in developing the amount of content, that there is no way they could have had it all this year. However, I should not be the one doing the burndown chart(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn_down_chart), and I have a feeling that game designers may not make good use of one.
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Joshua Harris
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ropya wrote:
I dont care for the veiled insults towards other companies, whether deserved or not.


I didn't see any veiled insults myself. I saw them directly answering the many. many, "but Kickstarter X does it this way, why don't you" complaints that are levied at FFP daily. There is no way to answer those questions, without directly stating the reasons that you feel that your way is correct.
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J Ry
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cormor321 wrote:
ropya wrote:
SirTainly wrote:
I posted something similar on the KS comments, but $600 worth of product, plus $125 of shipping I'd have to pay something like $283 to get in on wave 1.5 (shipping+taxes+handling fee). This is a joke - it's almost half of what I spent on this KS to begin with.

I do hope they return to EU based shipping for wave 2, otherwise things may get very nasty with the level of import taxes EU backers will be expected to pay.


They shouldnt be qouting MSRP on the invoice for imports correct?
Shouldnt it be price paid?


Depends what it is. Paid addons are easy, they can list to at the price they charged. "Free" stretch goals could technically be listed either with its appropriate % of the base pledge cost or with its manufacturing cost, whichever is higher. If the prices seem too low customs may request proof and hold the package until they are satisfied they got ever possible cent.


Wow, that really sucks.
Gives me a new appreciation for sure.

I figured the receipts from kickstarter and the pledge manager would be enough to show price paid.
So the price you actually paid doesn't matter for vat, but it's the msrp used?
 
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J Ry
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Cornbread46 wrote:
ropya wrote:
I dont care for the veiled insults towards other companies, whether deserved or not.


I didn't see any veiled insults myself. I saw them directly answering the many. many, "but Kickstarter X does it this way, why don't you" complaints that are levied at FFP daily. There is no way to answer those questions, without directly stating the reasons that you feel that your way is correct.


Very good point.
One I'd not considered.

I'd not realized they were getting harped on that badly.
That is indeed more on the backers.

Comparisons are one thing, but really each project should stand on its own in its on right.
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John VanDenBerg
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njep wrote:
ropya wrote:
Past that, while the update was awesome for people in on wave 1.5 and im looking forward to everything coming in at wave 2, I dont care for the veiled insults towards other companies, whether deserved or not.


The whole wording was unnecessary on the part of FFP. They could have accurately expressed their current situation without any insults.


I disagree. In almost every KS campaign there is a very vocal minority pissing and moaning over every little delay, regardless of any logical reasoning with them. So FFP is saying they're not going to be pressured into rushing things, and using references to campaigns that did so with bad results as justification highlights their reasoning. Since they didn't point out any specific examples, I don't see why anyone would feel insulted. Unless, of course, they realize that they deserve it.

I did not buy in for 1.5 shipping during the campaign, so I think it's great that they're opening it up again so I can do so now. I am very happy with the quality of the content released so far, and I'm glad FFP "will sell no wine before its time"
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Njorl
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JTQuest wrote:
njep wrote:
ropya wrote:
Past that, while the update was awesome for people in on wave 1.5 and im looking forward to everything coming in at wave 2, I dont care for the veiled insults towards other companies, whether deserved or not.


The whole wording was unnecessary on the part of FFP. They could have accurately expressed their current situation without any insults.


I disagree. In almost every KS campaign there is a very vocal minority pissing and moaning over every little delay, regardless of any logical reasoning with them. So FFP is saying they're not going to be pressured into rushing things, and using references to campaigns that did so with bad results as justification highlights their reasoning. Since they didn't point out any specific examples, I don't see why anyone would feel insulted. Unless, of course, they realize that they deserve it.

I did not buy in for 1.5 shipping during the campaign, so I think it's great that they're opening it up again so I can do so now. I am very happy with the quality of the content released so far, and I'm glad FFP "will sell no wine before its time"


I may have misread Ropya's comment, but I gathered he was stating that the comments from FFP were insulting to other kickstarters not the backers.
I interpreted his comment to refer mainly to this bit from the update:

"It is an unfortunate truth that many companies are using KS as more of a pre-order, rather than funding project development as it was intended. "

If that is the case, I'm not sure why it was necessary, and I would hope that they could express their point differently. But that is my own context and I don't want to put words in someone elses mouth.
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Max Maloney
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I thought the point made by FFP was reasonable. Although people love to harp on delivery timetables, the game as advertised on Kickstarter was delivered pretty close to on time (I got mine in October and they had originally listed August). All the additional stretch content was "to be developed" and shouldn't be held to the same expected delivery date by any reasonable person.

I wish this stuff would come faster but that is just greed. I am really happy with the things they've shown and I'm glad they're taking the time to come up with legitimately interesting new characters, monsters, etc rather than rushing things out that feel the same as what we already have with a different miniature.
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Njorl
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Dormammu wrote:
I thought the point made by FFP was reasonable. Although people love to harp on delivery timetables, the game as advertised on Kickstarter was delivered pretty close to on time (I got mine in October and they had originally listed August). All the additional stretch content was "to be developed" and shouldn't be held to the same expected delivery date by any reasonable person.

I wish this stuff would come faster but that is just greed. I am really happy with the things they've shown and I'm glad they're taking the time to come up with legitimately interesting new characters, monsters, etc rather than rushing things out that feel the same as what we already have with a different miniature.


I agree. Personally I believe that if we had everything in our hands by now that it would be rushed and subpar. I'm very well versed in the Mythical Man Month and it's implications that you cannot throw bodies at a project or otherwise rush it in order to deliver the same product in a shorter time span.
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Sebastian Bludd
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Here is what I've been able to glean from the image of three new Hero classes they sent in the email:

Orphan
Agility 4 Cunning 2
Spirit 3 Strength 1
Lore 2 Luck 3
Initiative 4
Abilities
Young - May not Dual Wield Guns. Unless KO'd, may Heal 1 Wound or 1 Sanity Damage at the start of each turn.
Quick - Always Activates before Enemies at Initiative level and automatically passes all Escape tests.
On a Mission - Starts with an Orphan Mission (draw 2 choose 1).

Prospector: Keyword = Frontier
Agility 1 Cunning 2
Spirit 2 Strength 4
Lore 3 Luck 3
Initiative 2
Abilities
Crotchety - May not use Guns or Tech Items.
Expert Miner - Whenever the Hero collects Gold ($) or Dark Stone from a Loot, Scavenge, or Encounter card, double the amount collected.
Death Blow - The Hero's To Hit rolls of 8+ double the Damage rolled for that Hit. Note that this is [obscured] for weapons that would [remainder obscured]

Drifter: Keywords = Traveler, Frontier, [obscured]
Agility 2 Cunning 3
Spirit 3 Strength 2
Lore 4 Luck 1
Initiative 5
Combat: 2
Max Grit: 3
Ranged To Hit: 3+
Abilities
Long Years Experience - Not restricted to targeting adjacent enemies first with Ranged Attacks. Starts with 2 Personal Items. At the start of each Fight, every other non-Drifter Hero may Recover 1 Grit.
Distrustful - -1 Initiative for every Hero adjacent at the start of the turn (minimum 1).
Danger Magnet - All Enemies gain 1 Elite ability for free. When traveling to Town, always adds an extra D3 Traveling Hazards.

[obscured] starting Upgrade - Drifter's Secret
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Bernie Roessler
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I would bet the Prospector to have a Combat 3.
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Max Maloney
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SabastianBludd wrote:
Death Blow - The Hero's To Hit rolls of 8+ double the Damage rolled for that Hit. Note that this is [obscured] for weapons that would [remainder obscured]

I'm sure the note is clarifying that it is meant for weapons that use a D8 for attacks.
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Beorndog wrote:
I would bet the Prospector to have a Combat 3.


Whereas I'm currently thinking he's likely combat 2 but starts with a Doublehanded Pickax that uses d8's for hit and damage and has two or three upgrade slots.

i.e. a smaller number of heavy melee hits to differentiate from the current Melee specialists who tend towards larger numbers of weaker hits.

If he gets a third inherant Combat, I'd expect it to be like the Bandit and be part or all of his Starting ability. At which point I'd expect his ability to roll d8 to hit to be an different Starting Ability rather than part of the Double handed Pickax.
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Simon White
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ropya wrote:

Wow, that really sucks.
Gives me a new appreciation for sure.

I figured the receipts from kickstarter and the pledge manager would be enough to show price paid.
So the price you actually paid doesn't matter for vat, but it's the msrp used?


Here customs (HMRC) will set the duty (if the item qualifies) and VAT amount (20%). They then pass the item to the courier or postal service who deliver the item to you and collect the money, along with a substantial handling charge - usually £8 ($13). I say substantial because you can end up paying more in the handling charge than the VAT owed.

This means your only options are:

1) pay the requested amount to the courier/postal service plus their handling fee, and then take the matter up with HMRC directly if you think it's wrong (good luck fighting a government body and even if you win you're down the handling fee)

2) refuse the package and have it taken away and returned or destroyed.




 
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Bernie Roessler
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I'm going to assume, perhaps foolishly, if we add additional items to the cart when 1.5 comes out (the additional Cynder artifacts, the cards that are now supplementing the doors and gates) this will be included in the $50/$125 1.5 shipping?
 
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njep wrote:
I may have misread Ropya's comment, but I gathered he was stating that the comments from FFP were insulting to other kickstarters not the backers.


That's what I read.

CMON: "It is an unfortunate truth that many companies are using KS as more of a pre-order, rather than funding project development as it was intended."

Myth: "Any veterans of KS can tell you about many projects that were rushed and ended up completely disappointing. Many of us have backed several projects that had to come out with apologetic 2nd edition rulebooks and card sets to fix all of the broken material that was delivered."

I know many BGG'ers don't care about the miniatures, but the update also doesn't address the miniatures quality. "We can't bring ourselves to shove something out the door prematurely because the wolves are at the gates growling." This sorta flies in the face of the poor miniatures quality (we have threads about this), and the update doesn't say if FFP have read the complaints and are improving the miniatures.

"We are proud of the fact that, against the odds and without much sleep for several months, we delivered the Core Sets within a year of the KS ending. It is an unfortunate truth that many companies are using KS as more of a pre-order, rather than funding project development as it was intended. We say unfortunate, because it creates unrealistic expectations from backers - "Company "Y" sent out Game "X" 3 months after the KS ended, why can't you?!?" The truth is proper game development takes time, and when it is done right, you end up with a great game that will be enjoyed for years. That's what we do. We can't bring ourselves to shove something out the door prematurely because the wolves are at the gates growling." This almost sounds like Robotech Tactics boilerplate, although SoB was handled a few zillion times better than Robotech. It's also a backhanded comment that any company that *does* send out X isn't doing it "right".

This is FFP's first KS project and has been a major undertaking. Backers still treat KS like a store, expecting (there's that word) a company with an overwhelming response to its first KS to produce a game just like one with much more experience. That shows some backers don't understand what KS is, and may find themselves a few hundred dollars poorer if they don't learn that one KS creator is not like another.

With all that said, backers are gonna get their stuff, which, in the end, is what's important. This isn't always the case with KickStarter. (Hmm. Wonder what companies *I'm* referring to!)
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J Ry
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I'll say this, it's awesome to see there will be so much when wave 1.5.

It helps me have faith in the overall project.

Unlike say robotech which hasn't shown any evidence wave 2 will even be produced.
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Adam Mitchell
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I can picture a battle between the Prospector character and one of the Dark Stone Brutes now, the Prospector swinging away with his pickaxe, hacking free Dark Stone left and right.

"Help! He's MINING me!"
 
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Michael Fuchs
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Has somebody a clue how much it is in the end to get 1.5 to germany? 125$ + how much tax?

Hat jemand eine Ahnung wie viel es im Endeffekt sein wird mit Zoll und Steuern, wenn man sich 1.5 liefern lässt?

MfG
fleXfuX
 
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