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Subject: Battle back after Bonus Melee attack against you? rss

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Mike Chase
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Can you battle back after a Bonus Melee attack has been made against you?
 
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Eric Hautemont
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if what you mean by against you is against the unit that retreated in the first place (so that a Bonus Melee attack could occur), the answer is no, even if the unit retreats into a situation where it finds support.

In effect, during one given combat sequence (a battle, and all follow-on actions), the defending unit can battle back at most once, against the initial assault.

However, if during the same game turn, the unit is then attacked, in another combat sequence by another unit, it will be able to battle back against thaat new attacker (assuming it can).

eric @ DoW
 
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Niko Ruf
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Erich wrote:
if what you mean by against you is against the unit that retreated in the first place (so that a Bonus Melee attack could occur), the answer is no, even if the unit retreats into a situation where it finds support.


Sorry, I don't get that from the rules at all. We played it that the bonus attack is a new melee (you can even attack a different unit than before), so the target of the bonus attack can battle back if he is bold, survives the bonus attack, and does not flee. What's wrong with that?
 
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Eric Hautemont
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Niko Ruf wrote:
Erich wrote:
if what you mean by against you is against the unit that retreated in the first place (so that a Bonus Melee attack could occur), the answer is no, even if the unit retreats into a situation where it finds support.


Sorry, I don't get that from the rules at all. We played it that the bonus attack is a new melee (you can even attack a different unit than before), so the target of the bonus attack can battle back if he is bold, survives the bonus attack, and does not flee. What's wrong with that?


If the unit that is the target of the bonus attack is a new unit, and it is bold, it can indeed battle back. But if the unit is the one that was the victim of the first attack, then it will not be able to battle back a second time _because_ it vacated its original hex.

Eric @ DoW
 
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Niko Ruf
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Now I am confused. The unit would never battle back "a second time", as it fled the first time. And the battle back and pursuit rules don't say anything about treating the second melee any different than the first. So I assumed that you would check the conditions for battling back also for the bonus attack. I.e., whether the unit is bold and stays in the hex it occupies at the moment it is attacked - which is the hex it retreated to after the first attack.
 
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Patrick McIntyre
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I think if we look at it by what is being simulated, it makes more sense.

If the unit I'm attacking breaks and runs, I have the option, as I'm moving forward, to either continue to pursue the original unit or attack a different unit nearby. The original unit would not be in a position to battle back, as they are running away, but the other unit would be better prepared and therefore eligible to battle back.
 
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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Niko Ruf wrote:
... The unit would never battle back "a second time", as it fled the first time...


It makes more sense if you read that as "at a second opportunity". In the English rules about Battle Back, it says this:

"It may fight back as soon as the attacker's dice roll is completed and fully resolved, assuming it survived the initial assault and did not vacate the hex it was standing on."

This could perhaps have been worded more clearly, but a careful reading dovetails perfectly with Eric's clarification.
 
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Mark McEvoy
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Thinking logically - why would a retreating unit be bold? The 'battle back' ability is directly tied to a unit's morale. Niko, your supposition just doesn't make logical sense (even if it isn't strictly contradicted in the rules). Battle-back is a benefit of high morale. A unit that was dislodged, forced to retreat and is pursued and attacked during / immediately after retreating - why would that unit ever have the benefits of high morale? If anything, I'd expect the unit to lose its flag-ignore capability on the second attack as well (though I don't know if it does - still awaiting delivery!)

It makes sense to me that a unit can only battle back if it holds ground against the first attack that unit faces that turn.
 
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Niko Ruf
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Sphere wrote:
In the English rules about Battle Back, it says this:

"It may fight back as soon as the attacker's dice roll is completed and fully resolved, assuming it survived the initial assault and did not vacate the hex it was standing on."


I have the English rules. And I always assumed the hex referred to the hex the unit is in at the time of the current attack, not any previous attack. So until I read the original question in this post, it never even occured to me that a unit might not battle back when it is bold and does not flee from the bonus strike.
 
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Niko Ruf
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thatmarkguy wrote:
Thinking logically - why would a retreating unit be bold?


Because it fell back to a position where it is better supported? I can make up a dozen reasons...

But talking logic for such an abstract combat system is futile, IMO. My point is simply that the rules as written indicate that you check for battle back after every melee, with no regards to prior history. That's easy to remember. I see that an exception would make sense, but whether it is worth the effort is another question entirely.

At least, such an important exception should be covered in the rules. Or the FAQ, once DoW get around to posting one. Not that their effort to clear up questions like this isn't very commendable, already. Thanks, Eric!
 
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Jim Patterson
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I think what some of us are looking for is on p. 31:

BattleLore rules wrote:
If the defending unit is forced off its hex, for any reason, during the initial Melee attack, its opportunity to battle back during this battle is lost, even if the unit falls back into another supported position once its retreat is completed.


(Emphasis in original.)
 
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Christopher Marx
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Niko Ruf wrote:
Erich wrote:
if what you mean by against you is against the unit that retreated in the first place (so that a Bonus Melee attack could occur), the answer is no, even if the unit retreats into a situation where it finds support.


Sorry, I don't get that from the rules at all. We played it that the bonus attack is a new melee (you can even attack a different unit than before), so the target of the bonus attack can battle back if he is bold, survives the bonus attack, and does not flee. What's wrong with that?


No, battle back is a "follow on action" after an attack, not a new melee AFAIR.
 
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Niko Ruf
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Thanks, Jim. That was the kind of rules quote I was hoping for. I kept looking under the rules for bonus attacks and for battling back, and there is nothing that suggests you can't battle back. Putting the rule under "support" is somewhat unfortunate, since a unit can be bold for other reasons.
 
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Niko Ruf
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crumbb wrote:
No, battle back is a "follow on action" after an attack, not a new melee AFAIR.


My phrasing was unfortunate. What I meant was this:

a) A bonus attack is a melee attack.
b) The rules of battling back tell you to check certain conditions after any melee attack. (That was what I meant with "new": there is a second attack).

So I didn't see where these two rules prevented a battle back after a bonus strike. However, as Jim pointed out, the exception is mentioned in the support rules.
 
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Well, I must admit: my table has been playing the Battle Back rule as Niko originally interpreted it and not as Eric clarifed and Jim emphasised with the p.31 citation.

There are three other passages on pages 28 and 30 and 31 which make it pretty clear that as long as you are adjacent to two friendly units, a defending unit becomes Supported and its morale is immediatley boosted to Bold and thus becoming eligible for battle backs:

Page 28: Support—The most common way for a unit to boost its morale is to receive support from adjacent, friendly units. A unit adjacent to at least two friendly (see Support, on p.30) of this chapter) may always ignore a flag. It is Bold for as long as it continues to receive support;

Page 30: SUPPORT The most common way for a unit to gain power the power to ignore a flag and temporarily boost its morale is to make sure it stays adjacent to at least to friendly units. The unit is said to receive Support from its adjacent units. Its morale is immediately boosted to Bold; the unit gains the ability to ignore one flag rolled against it; it may also battle back against its attacker in Melee if it survives the initial attack and holds its ground. This morale boost, and its benefits, remain as long the unit holds its ground and continues to receive support.

Page 31: A defending unit can be Bold for any number of reasons: support from friendly adjacent troops; racial benefit; magic; etc. (See Morale Modifiers p.28 of Chapter Four—Combat) It is only required that the unit be Bold at the time of its Battle Back.

Emphasis added for the p.30 citation. The p.30 passage also supports Eric's clarification, but I don't think it describes which which hex must be held as well as it could. Our table agreed that the hex to be held to be eligible for battle back is the one that the defending unit currently occupies and that is adjacent to two friendly units at the moment the attacker's dice are thrown—whether during the initial Melee attack or the Bonus Melee attack.

This is incorrect in retrospect, but I think that it's easy for people to make the mistake anyway.

This is because its easier to remember (and explain) that: so long as the defending unit is supported by two friendly units and isn't forced off the hex it's standing on, it may battle back against the attacking unit.

It's not as easy to remember that: the defending unit's battle back ability is lost, even if it is supported or Bold as a result of racial qualities, if it is forced off the hex it held against an attacking unit's initial Melee attack until it is attacked again by a different unit.

 
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...But it might be reasonably easy to remember and explain: A defending unit can never be eligible to battle back after an attacking unit's Bonus Melee attack if the defending unit was also the target of the attacking unit's initial Melee attack.

(...Because to get a Bonus Melee attack against the same defending unit, the defending unit had to be forced off the hex it initially held in the Battle sequence of the attacking unit.)

OkayI'llshutupnow...
 
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Justin Hwang
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BradyLS wrote:
it may also battle back against its attacker in Melee if it survives the initial attack and holds its ground. This morale boost, and its benefits, remain as long the unit holds its ground and continues to receive support.[/i]


Then can a unit battle back against a Bonus Melee attack, if the defending unit is bold but one of the two support units is the unit just retreated by initial attack?
(That is, the defending unit wasn't supported but became supported because of the retreating unit.)

It's not an "initial attack" so it shouldn't be able to battle back??
 
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Christian Sperling
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Justin wrote:
Then can a unit battle back against a Bonus Melee attack, if the defending unit is bold but one of the two support units is the unit just retreated by initial attack?
(That is, the defending unit wasn't supported but became supported because of the retreating unit.)

Has no one an answer??

Greetings,
Chris
 
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Shane Tapp
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Here is the definitive answer in 2 parts. I am bolding the most important part of the passages to help the rule make sense:

page 28: "Conducting Follow-On ACTIONS"

"In some instances, a unit in Melee (i.e. engaged in hand-to-hand or firing at point blank range) may be entitled to take some Follow-on actions. These actions are defined below, and considered to be part of the same "battle sequence" as the battle that initiates them.

page 30: "Battle Back"

In Melee combat, any defending unit that may ignore a flag (i.e. any unit whose morale is Bold) at the time of its attack is entitled to Battle back. It may fight back as soon as the attacker's dice roll is completed and fully resolved, assuming it survived the initial assault and did not vacate the hex it was standing on.

Ok...

So to answer the question...a unit can Battle back ONLY if it remains on the hex the battle started on. If the unit retreats, it can NOT Battle back on a Bonus Attack.

---- Edit ----

Had I read EVERY post before posting my own speil, I would have noticed Jim Patterson's spot on post up above -

If the defending unit is forced off its hex, for any reason, during the initial Melee attack, its opportunity to battle back during this battle is lost, even if the unit falls back into another supported position once its retreat is completed.

WTG Jim...that answered the entire question in one fell swoop

---- /Edit ----

I hope this helps.

Thanks,
Shane
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David
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To restate a 3rd (4th? 10th?) time, just for clarity.

The 2 important points are:

1) Pursuit is a FOLLOW-UP ACTION. It's not a new Battle, but is part of the same Battle as the original attack.

2) A unit may only Battle Back if it is both BOLD and if it has not vacated it's original Hex during that Battle.
 
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Christian Sperling
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Hi

Yes, thats all clear.shake

But what I want to know is:
A unit is attacked and retreats.
The attacking unit pursuits and attack again, but not that unit that just retreated.
Instead, a unit adjacent to the just retreated unit.
This new attacked unit has now a bold status because of the just retreated unit.
Is the new attacked unit eligible to battle back?

Greetings,
Chris
 
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Blue Jackal
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I'd go with yes.
 
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David
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I'd go with Yes too, but it is a great question and one that could use to be clarified so there's no confusion.

Great job with finding these little confusing issues btw, makes it easier for them to draw up a good FAQ.
 
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Christian Sperling
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Hi,

Yes, the unit is bold and can battle back!
I got an official answer from DoW.

Greetings,
Chris
 
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