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The End of the Triumvirate» Forums » Rules

Subject: regarding winning rss

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Stu Glennie
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A quick comment / question for the designers....(but anyone is welcome to comment too)

First off I want to say this is an awesome game and quickly has become one of my favorites! After one play I ran out the next morning to purchase a copy.

On to the the comment / question:

After playing a session of this the other night, the one fellow (who just played his first ever game) said he thought the criteria for winning was "broken".

His reasons:

1) It seemed "too easy" to take over 9 provinces and get your Govenors on the board (this is the way he won, by the way)

2) Being elected Consul once and then just having to get 6 more supporters at any time after was "too easy" as well. He brought up the fact that if you got elected with 9 supporters, droppped 3 after the election as per the rules, you still had 6 left so you would automatically win.

His idea for "fixing" the game was this: make the two above scenarios only count at the end of a year. ie: if you have all 9 of your Govenors out at year end, you win OR if you have 6 supporters in the counsul at year end (before the elections happen of course) you win. We didn't get into what would happen if there was a tie.

Now I personally don't think the game is "broken" in any way and tried to explain that it is based somewhat on history and the winning scenarios were balanced in my opinion to reflect that. Not to mention how incredibly hard it would be to go into the election with 9 supporters!

However, I do like his idea as a Variant. It would of course mean the game would play longer - but not too much.

The question is simple - what do you think of this as a variant?

Thanks for the great game guys!!

Stu
 
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Mark Bigney
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So he thinks two of the three victory conditions are "too easy." Essentially, then, he feels that a competence victory is too difficult. That's an unusual complaint, given that the more common complaint is that a competence victory is the easiest path (I'll note that I don't feel that the victory conditions need changing).
Your friend's suggested fix would lead to a broken game, as far as I'm concerned--it too heavily benefits the one that acts last in a given year. Too much changes in a given turn--you win by barely eking out the conditions during your turn. Setting things up such that you still win a turn or two later strike me as well-nigh impossible.
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Stu Glennie
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Gyges wrote:

Your friend's suggested fix would lead to a broken game, as far as I'm concerned--it too heavily benefits the one that acts last in a given year.


Good point - I hadn't thought of the power that the last player of the year would then have.

Now I don't even like his ideas as a variant.

Thanks!
 
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Jim Cote
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Thomas_de_Monet wrote:
1) It seemed "too easy" to take over 9 provinces and get your Govenors on the board (this is the way he won, by the way)


If it's too easy to conquer provinces, then everyone would do it, which would all cancel out.

I suspect either: the other 2 players let him get away with it, or that you may have a rule wrong (especially the way the governors without civil servants allow for production only every OTHER turn).
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Stu Glennie
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Thanks for the input ekted!

This was my 6th time playing - which by no means makes me an expert on the game - but I am 99.9% sure we had all the rules right and I know the govenors were being used properly.

He was able to take over 3 provinces in one turn (due to the third player over-attacking me the turn before and leaving himself undefended) and win the game - making it seem fairly easy.

I am starting to think that this wasn't the best session for him to judge the game on - it was his first time playing , the third player's second time playing, and I was concentrating on teaching the game and probably screwed up my strategy as well!

I'll see if he is willing to try it out again, but he is the type of fellow who makes his mind up and thats it - its broken so why play?

I'LL still play! I don't find anything wrong with it and nearly all my sessions have ended with a "oh crap - I was worried about HIM and not YOU" type of scenario.

 
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Jim Cote
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3 territories in a row is tough. They all basically have to be adjacent. You need a ton of legions. You need some support in your favor in the battle bag. The opponent's plank needs to be elsewhere. If any of these are not true, it would require extreme luck and opponent's negligence to pull off.
 
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Stu Glennie
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ekted wrote:
They all basically have to be adjacent.

They were (all along the bottom edge of the board).

ekted wrote:
You need a ton of legions.

He had (at least 10).

ekted wrote:
You need some support in your favor in the battle bag.

He did (all his weapons were in the bag).

ekted wrote:
The opponent's plank needs to be elsewhere.

It was.

As I said, the fellow left himself wide open. If I remember correctly, one of the provinces didn't even have legions in it. One of the provinces was mine and I only had 2 legions there - no contest.

Bad or poor or distracted or first time players does not a good first impression make.

Its really too bad that it worked out that way - since usually that scenario is VERY hard to pull off as you said!

I'll try to get him to play again, maybe with some of the other guys in the gaming club who have played a few times.

Thanks again for the input.
 
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Johannes Ackva
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Salve Stu!

Thanks for your positive feedback :-)
An answer to your (friend's) comment concerning the victory-conditions:

1)Controlling 9 of 15 provinces means to control 60 % of the overall territory (when a median between the players would be 33, 33%). As Jim pointed out, this isn't very easy when all players try to conquer provinces since they balance each other. In fact it's rather difficult to reach such an obvious military dominance and it needs – in my experience – a clever strategy that expands military supplies constantly to meet this condition.
2)Controlling 9 of 11 supporters before an election means to control more than 80 % of all supporters in a situation when controlling supporters is most essential. Reaching this aim before an election is only possible if the two other players showed hardly any interest in political activities.

In both cases described above, two players have failed in paying attention to the thirds' player activities. The existence of three victory-conditions offers great opportunities to each player but – connected to this – also “forces” them to have a close eye on each player's activities in the different realms.

In case the players watch each other carefully, the victory-conditions become rather difficult since every victory-condition can be countered: provinces can be reconquered, supporters can be neutralized and competences can be decreased by attacks on the character.

Making victory dependent on the end of the year, would lead to the negative effects described by Mark.
In fact in an earlier version of the game the political victory was only reachable at the end of a year because the possibility to win by 6 supporters at any time wasn't introduced yet. Under this settings the political victory was – comparable to the other conditions – very difficult and less likely. This led us to the decision to introduce the additional possibility facilitating the political victory.

Have fun with the game!

Greetings,
Johannes
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Stu Glennie
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Hello Johannes!

This is why I LOVE the 'geek!

Where else can you have a questions about a game and not only get other player's thoughts but have a chat with the designer? Awesome!

Thanks for the low-down on how/why the game was set up the way it is - I have compiled the thread from here and have put it into the game box for future reference.

Next time we play, I'll let him read it and see if he is willing to play again.

As I stated before - the other player was new and I was distracted, which might have made the provincial win a bit too "easy".

I can assure you that out of our group of gamers here this is not the concensus about your game! I believe there is at least 3 copies owned out of the core 20 of us or so.

Thanks again!

Stu
 
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chris yates
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we played this twice last night. My other gaming group really rate it so I thought it would good to have a genuine 3 player game in my collection.

It seemed to us that the competence victory was always the favourite. It's the only one that can't be directly countered by your opponents (barring the expensive attack on the leader).

This lead us to focussing on gold on trying to build up competencies which seemed a much quicker way to victory and as I mentioned more difficult to counter apart from doing the same yourself so it lost some its '3 ways to win appeal'.

We must play more to see what we're missing - any thoughts?

Chris
 
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David Seddon
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Well, that is quite fascinating.

One of my groups has played this game twice now and have come to the following conclusions:

1. It's a great game.
2. It can be over TOO quickly (we like it that it's failry quick, though)
3. Winning by competence is by FAR the easiest way to win.
4. Winning militarily is the toughest.

We haven't played enough yet to be able to pontificate about what to do with variants, so take this with a pinch of salt, but we thought we may try:

a. You can't EVER use three actions to do the same thing 3 times (we may end up weakening that to just you can't move competences three times) in your turn. Twice for one action is the max.
b. Maybe try for a military win with only 8 provinces held.

Of course, the above may well tip the balance too much, but we thought we may try it.

As we see it, if a player spends all or nearly all of his action in the first two years moving competences, he can win before the 2nd year is up. It happend last time and it almost happened the time before. How do the other players stop one player from achieving this? We can see how you may stymie those going for miltary of political wins, but not competence wins.

We found that after the first year, 2x Gold bearing provinces were the key. Nab those, esp whilst the governor is in the box and you can really be flying towards that competence victory -esp if you allow 3 actions to move competenece.

Thoughts from more experienced players?
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Pedro Silva
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Thomas_de_Monet wrote:
ekted wrote:
You need a ton of legions.

He had (at least 10).


Did you remember that at the end of a player's turn no provinces may hold more than 6 Legions?

I ask because I just played my first game today and forgot about that. Even so, the victor won by being elected consul twice after the third year (maximum possible is four...). And it was Crassus, played by my girlfriend.

Great game! Even after only one play I think I love it...

Thanks again Secret Santa!
 
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Paulo Santoro
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It's amazing to see how some people play the game ONE TIME and decide that it is "broken"... designers take months of hard work, the game is playtested hundreds of times, and then the genius come to be the only one that can see what anybody else could.

yuk
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